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Tyennie

Balk ruling

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Sorry if this one has been answered in previous posts

Discussion started today that Off. Coach has his choice about which play to accept when pitcher balks.

OBR   Situation we used as example: R2, R3, Batter has 3-1 count.  F1 balks and delivers, ball 4, hits batter (not swinging, so a definite HBP)

several of my colleagues say Off. coach has choice, he can accept the HBP and now have bases loaded, or he can take the balk, score R3, move R2 to third and batter stays at bat with 3/1 count.

i say Bullflop, since awarding BR first base does not move R2&R3 the requisite 1 base to disregard the balk, you have to enforce it, score R3, move R2 and put batter back in box.

what are your thoughts?

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10 minutes ago, Tyennie said:

Sorry if this one has been answered in previous posts

Discussion started today that Off. Coach has his choice about which play to accept when pitcher balks.

OBR   Situation we used as example: R2, R3, Batter has 3-1 count.  F1 balks and delivers, ball 4, hits batter (not swinging, so a definite HBP)

several of my colleagues say Off. coach has choice, he can accept the HBP and now have bases loaded, or he can take the balk, score R3, move R2 to third and batter stays at bat with 3/1 count.

i say Bullflop, since awarding BR first base does not move R2&R3 the requisite 1 base to disregard the balk, you have to enforce it, score R3, move R2 and put batter back in box.

what are your thoughts?

You are correct. I hope when you said colleagues that they weren't umpire colleagues. 

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12 minutes ago, Tyennie said:

Sadly yes, any others wish to concur with Jimurray, as a preponderance of evidence to present my not so learned colleagues

Why not have them read the rule. And for extra credit ask them what two occurrences in the rule book do allow the option. 

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6 hours ago, Tyennie said:

How this myth got started is beyond me

Easy.  Very simply:

There are two instances where an Offensive Coach gets an option to either take the penalty, or ignore the penalty and take the result of the play.

1) Certain cases of an illegal pitch.

2) Certain cases of Catcher's Interference (Catcher's Obstruction in FED).

Since umpires sometimes "confer" to make sure they are handling a balk correctly AFTER they've called something, it is actually easy to see how coaches and umpires both (the ones who are not studious with the rulebook ... like Ives proves below ... which is the vast majority) get the balk rule thrown into the wrong mix.

Another one you will encounter is when you call batter's INT with R1 & R3, the catcher still successfully throws out R1's attempt to steal 2B, but R3 scores on the play.  An offensive coach (and many umpires) will insist that they get the choice of the out on R1 and allow the run (the play), or an out on the batter and return the runners to TOP (the penalty) ... or two or three other variations of their imagination.

YES.  It happened to me.  With a Varsity HS coach. 

And guess what ... my Varsity Umpire partner who has been to the State Tournament was clueless.

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4 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Easy.  Very simply:

There are two instances where an Offensive Coach gets an option to either take the penalty, or ignore the penalty and take the result of the play.

1) Certain cases of an illegal pitch.

 

Where is this in OBR?   FED? 

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

Where is this in OBR?   FED? 

It doesn't exist in FED, since an illegal pitch is an immediate dead ball.

The OP, Mr. Ives, was OBR.  Perhaps looking up the rule yourself would be a good exercise.

OBR Rule 6.02.(d)(2)(4)

(2) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire,
the manager of the team at bat may advise the
umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the play.
Such election shall be made immediately at the end
of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base
on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or
otherwise, and no other runner is put out before
advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed
without reference to the violation.

(4) If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to
accept the play, the umpire-in-chief shall call an
automatic ball and, if there are any runners on base, a
balk.

You coach.  You have to consider 3 sides: Offense, Defense, and Rules.

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From the Wendelstedt manual (2013 ed., p. 99)

If the pitcher attempts to gain an advantage by delivering a pitch while not in contact with the rubber, or delivers a Quick Pitch, the umpire will declare an illegal pitch.

With no runners on base, the umpire will call and signal an illegal pitch and allow the play to continue. At the conclusion of the pitch or play:

If the batter advanced one base safely, the illegal pitch is disregarded. Any advancement or out on the play stands. There is no option to take the penalty.

If the batter does not advance at least one base safely, the batter is returned to bat, and a ball is added to his previous count.

With runner(s), the umpire will call and signal a balk and allow the play to continue. If at whatever point any runner does not advance one base safely, the umpire will call time. The batter is returned to bat with his previous count, and every runner advances one base from his original base.

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5 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the Wendelstedt manual (2013 ed., p. 99)

Azul,

Read my post above please — straight out of the 2017 MLB Rule Book.

Your Wendelstedt manual doesn't line up with the ultimate authority.

Also, not gone unnoticed, is a 4-year discrepancy,

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13 hours ago, Tyennie said:

Sadly yes, any others wish to concur with Jimurray, as a preponderance of evidence to present my not so learned colleagues

(Almost) Everyone here will agree with Jimurray on this issue -- no option on a balk.

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8 hours ago, VolUmp said:

It doesn't exist in FED, since an illegal pitch is an immediate dead ball.

The OP, Mr. Ives, was OBR.  Perhaps looking up the rule yourself would be a good exercise.

OBR Rule 6.02.(d)(2)(4)

(2) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire,
the manager of the team at bat may advise the
umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the play.
Such election shall be made immediately at the end
of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base
on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or
otherwise, and no other runner is put out before
advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed
without reference to the violation.

(4) If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to
accept the play, the umpire-in-chief shall call an
automatic ball and, if there are any runners on base, a
balk.

You coach.  You have to consider 3 sides: Offense, Defense, and Rules.

This part of the rule book (pg. 75) involves doctoring the baseball.

(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(3) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball;
(5) deface the ball in any manner; or
(6) deliver a ball altered in a manner prescribed by Rule 6.02(c)(2) through (5) or what is called the “shine” ball, “spit” ball, “mud” ball or “emery” ball. The pitcher is allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.
(7) Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign sub- stance.

These are the instances that has an option. 

It does not apply to quick pitches and not in contact with rubber illegal pitches. With runners on base, balk. 

@Senor Azul case example applicable to op, and something tells me if I look at my 2016 Wendelstedt, I'd find the same case example. Not one of 2017 changed involves illegal pitches. 

May be in the future be more clear about what you are quoting. Myths get started when the rule book is taken out of context. 

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8 hours ago, VolUmp said:

It doesn't exist in FED, since an illegal pitch is an immediate dead ball.

The OP, Mr. Ives, was OBR.  Perhaps looking up the rule yourself would be a good exercise.

OBR Rule 6.02.(d)(2)(4)

(2) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire,
the manager of the team at bat may advise the
umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the play.
Such election shall be made immediately at the end
of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base
on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or
otherwise, and no other runner is put out before
advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed
without reference to the violation.

(4) If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to
accept the play, the umpire-in-chief shall call an
automatic ball and, if there are any runners on base, a
balk.

You coach.  You have to consider 3 sides: Offense, Defense, and Rules.

I did before I commented. None of those situations involve an illegal pitch

BCBrad posted the segment of the rule where your penalty applies. Read it yourself

What's your next try?

 

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Mr. VolUmp, you are indeed correct that there is a second instance of a play that gives an option to the offensive coach to take the play or the penalty. But what I objected to was your terminology. That second instance does not conform to the definition of an illegal pitch.

In fact, the rule you cited is about the pitcher defacing the ball. In the 2016 BRD, Carl Childress notes that “A pitcher defacing the ball is one of twelve major rules where each level treats the situation differently.” In OBR the penalty is pretty severe.

Here is the text from the BRD (section 389, p. 261):  The ball is delayed dead. If a play follows the pitch, the manager of the offense may take the play or the penalty. PENALTY:  ball and balk with runners. (6.02d Pen. 2) If the batter and all runners advance one base, play continues without reference to the violation. Regardless of which option the manager selects, the umpire enforces 6.02d Pen. 1: immediate ejection.

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3 hours ago, BCBrad said:

May be in the future be more clear about what you are quoting. Myths get started when the rule book is taken out of context

OK.  I stand corrected ... but my point still remains.  There are two other instances where the Offensive Coach indeed may get an option to take the play or take the penalty ... and it doesn't exactly "blow my mind" that coaches think they can get an option on a balk or an INT play.

Thank you, Brad and Azul both for understanding it is terminology and semantics and not ignorance or stupidity that separated us on this issue.

Ives, your reputation precedes you, and I have nothing further to say.  Umpire for one year and then make the comments you make with a little more credibility.

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5 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

So does yours.

I'll say this much ... I would love it if the coaches who are paid to coach know half as much of the three different rules codes as you do.  I think we would get along well in a game that I officiated that you coached.  You would know when to protest a game as opposed to rip my head off for a rule you don't understand.

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19 hours ago, Tyennie said:

Well that is the next step.  How this myth got started is beyond me

After you get them to read the rule you still might have a few who can't comprehend. Then you will have to print this from the PBUC/MLBUM, courtesy of @noumpere in another thread. Don't be disappointed however if one or two of your colleagues get halfway through and whine about why they made the rule so complicated and why can't the just give the coach a choice.

Here's a complete (?) summary from PBUC:

7.9 CALLING "TIME" AFTER A BALK
The penalty for balk allows the play to proceed without reference to the balk if the batter and all
runners advance one base on the pitch following the balk (i.e., the actual pitch and/or action
caused by the batter hitting the ball). The umpire shall not call "Time" until play stops following
the balk. The question therefore arises as to when the umpire is to call "Time" to kill the ball
after calling a balk. The following cases should help explain when play is considered "stopped"
and a what moment the umpire should call "Time" following the call of balk:
(1) If the pitcher balks and does not throw the ball, call "That's a balk; Time!" and enforce the
balk.
(2) If the balk is followed by a batted ball, leave the ball in play until it is apparent that the batter
and all runners will not advance one base. At that moment, call "Time" and enforce the balk.
If, however, the batter reaches first base and all runners advance at least one base on play
following the balk, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
EXAMPLES:
(a) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a fly ball that is caught, call "Time" the
moment the fly ball is caught. Then enforce the balk.
(b) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a ground-out on a previous runner at the
base to which he would be entitled because of the balk, call "Time" the moment the out is
made. Then enforce the balk.
(3) If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the
catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations
covered in item (5) below.)
(4) If the balk is followed by a pick-off throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call "Time"
the moment the fielder catches the ball. Then enforce the balk.
(5) If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call
"Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that
situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(6) If the balk is followed by a pitch that strikes the batter, call "Time" the moment the pitch
strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batter forces all other runners to
advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(7) If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball
Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his
own risk. In that situation the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call
"Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
(8) If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05
provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call "Time"
until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and an fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
Note that even if the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of
a wild pitch following a balk, the balk is still "acknowledged." That is, the pitch is nullified
and the batter will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred
unless:
(a) The wild pitch was ball four on which all runners advanced one base; or
(b) The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one
base.
In both situations (a) and (b) above, play proceeds without reference to the balk, because all
runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base on the pitch following the balk.

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