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ElkOil

Two Quesions

22 posts in this topic

1. It is my understanding that if an outfielder bobbles a fly ball, and then secures possession, a runner can leave his base without jeopardy upon first touch of the ball by the outfielder.

True? False? OBR? Fed?

2. In OBR is there such a concept as verbal INT/OBS?

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49 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

1. It is my understanding that if an outfielder bobbles a fly ball, and then secures possession, a runner can leave his base without jeopardy upon first touch of the ball by the outfielder.

True? False? OBR? Fed?

2. In OBR is there such a concept as verbal INT/OBS?

1) Yes, of course, in all codes.  That rule, like so many, was born when outfielders would purposely juggle the ball multiple times as they moved closer and closer to the infield.

2) If there is (INT), it's certainly not enforced like it is in FED.  

A-Rod is the prime example. As a runner on a pop-up with two outs, he ran behind an F5 and yelled, "mine" (he claimed he only said "ha") and the F5 let it drop because he thought F6 was calling him off.

Everyone saw/heard it and did nada.

As for OBS, I seriously doubt if a runner stole 2B on a foul tip and the pivot man told him it was a foul ball, and the runner was näive enough to believe him, retreat, and get tagged out, that an MLB ump would award him 3B ... let alone return him to 2B.

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The answer to your first ques(t)ion is true in both OBR and Fed.

OBR Definitions of Terms (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball…

Fed rule 8-2-4 If a fair or foul batted ball is caught, other than a foul tip, each base runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has touched a fielder…

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In OBR there is no (defensive) verbal obstruction. The point is not covered in the rules but there is an official interpretation found in the 2016 BRD (section 375, page 252):

Fitzpatrick:  Do not penalize verbal decoys in games played using OBR rules.

There is no verbal interference in OBR as there is in NCAA/Fed. We arrive at that conclusion because there is no mention of verbal interference in the definition of interference in the appendix Definitions of Terms.

From the 2016 BRD (section 281, page 183):  Yankees v. Blue Jays, 2 outs, Alex Rodriguez on second. B1 pops up between short and third. As A-Rod runs between the fielders, he yells at them. The ball falls to the ground. Ruling:  In Fed/NCAA, A-Rod is out. In OBR, there is no interference.

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9 hours ago, ElkOil said:

2. In OBR is there such a concept as verbal INT/OBS?

Officially no -- but it gets applied (properly, imo) at all levels below MiLB.

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25 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Officially no -- but it gets applied (properly, imo) at all levels below MiLB.

I agree with this: the absence of the rule in OBR is appropriate for pro players, who should be able to play through verbal OBS/INT.

In amateur ball, I enforce the rule grounded in the concept of hindrance, which can include verbal hindrance. Make it big, though: no ticky-tack calls for that.

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Was umpiring a juniors level little league tournament last week. The third base coach (also manager) emphatically yelled "that's a balk" during the delivery. We were running four man so I wasn't even sure who called it. None of us had a balk and the batter bunted and was put out at first. But the coach so confused his own runner at third that he hesitated and then was thrown out at home. Was a pretty funny situation. Point being yelling something like that on the field could definitely be offensive interference in my mind if it had caused the pitcher to stop or something like that. If it had caused the defense to stop and allow runners to advance I would have put them back. 

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1 minute ago, mwest5575 said:

Was umpiring a juniors level little league tournament last week. The third base coach (also manager) emphatically yelled "that's a balk" during the delivery.

There's a specific rule about that.

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23 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

EJ in FED. 

What's the LL rule?

LL and OBR both use the same rule - do something to try to induce a balk and you do not penalize a resulting balk.

Penalty is ejection.  Make sure you are sure.

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So the coach was yelling at us. He thought there was a balk and was yelling at us about it. If it had caused a balk I guess you eject at that point?

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

LL and OBR both use the same rule - do something to try to induce a balk and you do not penalize a resulting balk.

Penalty is ejection.  Make sure you are sure.

In the situation described I like the outcome better than an EJ... Karma is a bitch sometimes!

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50 minutes ago, mwest5575 said:

Or should we have ejected immediately even though the play continued?

Ejection cannot happen during a play. You wait until play relaxes.

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Oh I understand that. I meant should we have ejected after the play for the coach yelling that's a balk in the middle of the pitch? Is that enough to penalize or were we right to let it play out since the defense wasn't negatively impacted? We definitely told the coach to knock it off but does what happened really warrant an ejection?

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25 minutes ago, mwest5575 said:

Oh I understand that. I meant should we have ejected after the play for the coach yelling that's a balk in the middle of the pitch? Is that enough to penalize or were we right to let it play out since the defense wasn't negatively impacted? We definitely told the coach to knock it off but does what happened really warrant an ejection?

The language of the Fed rule is that an ejection is warranted for anyone who "use(s) any command or commit any act for the purpose of causing a balk." So even if nobody was impacted, you could still EJ if you believed it was said in an attempt to cause a balk.

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From the 2016 Little League Baseball Official Regulations, Playing Rules, and Policies:

4.06 – No manager, coach, or player, shall at any time, whether from the bench or the playing field or elsewhere…

(c) make any move calculated to cause the pitcher to commit an illegal pitch [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior/Big League]

The umpire may first warn the player, coach, and/or manager. If continued, remove the player, coach, and/or manager from the game or bench. If such action causes an illegal pitch [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior/Big League], it shall be nullified.

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I think in 95+% of cases where you hear a Coach yell, "balk!" Or, "that's a balk" he is not actually trying to "cause" a balk,… He's just saying he thought he saw a balk. 

So reading FED's language to the letter, a warning is appropriate unless you have reason to believe there is intent… No different than if you feel a pitcher is purposely throwing at a batter. 

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1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

I think in 95+% of cases where you hear a Coach yell, "balk!" Or, "that's a balk" he is not actually trying to "cause" a balk,… He's just saying he thought he saw a balk. 

So reading FED's language to the letter, a warning is appropriate unless you have reason to believe there is intent… No different than if you feel a pitcher is purposely throwing at a batter. 

This is how I would do it in LL (Intermediate and up, natch) as well.  Likely the coach and I will have a firm discussion about how balk is a word only the umpire should speaking loudly, and how we don't want to have that interfere with play.

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20 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 Little League Baseball Official Regulations, Playing Rules, and Policies:

4.06 – No manager, coach, or player, shall at any time, whether from the bench or the playing field or elsewhere…

(c) make any move calculated to cause the pitcher to commit an illegal pitch [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior/Big League]

The umpire may first warn the player, coach, and/or manager. If continued, remove the player, coach, and/or manager from the game or bench. If such action causes an illegal pitch [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior/Big League], it shall be nullified.

may........does not mean shall.  :insertevillaughhere:

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