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FleasOf1000Camels

F2 carries ball to DBT

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Strange play, what do you think?

OBR, 1 out, R2.  Batter singles to RC.   R2 trying to score, takes a VERY wide turn past 3rd, slips on wet grass and slides straight through the dugout gate.  F2, now with ball in hand, follows R2 in to the dugout and tags him while he's trying to get up from the tangled pile of bats and helmets.  Everybody, including me, is having a good laugh at the whole situation.  I don't believe I actually made an OUT call or signal.

Now I see the batter/runner standing on 2nd and call TIME.    I see nobody is hurt, and am thinking the play is all done.  But wait, OC approaches and asks "since the catcher carried the ball in to DBT, how many bases does my runner get?"  For what it's worth, I can't honestly say where BR was when F2 (and the ball) left the field...but my instinct says he had not yet reached 2nd.  Talked it over with partner, and we sent BR to 3rd.  Nobody had any complaints about it.  Just wondering what some of you guys think.

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Aging_Arbiter    613

I agree. Strange play.  Given the info provided, I would agree with your placement result if you are convinced that he did acquire 1B.

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stkjock    272

can't help with the call, however, raised a few thoughts for this novice:

 

once the ball goes into DBT - can an out be recorded? the ball is immediately dead and time is called as I understand it.

 

if the ball is carried to DBT - and the runner has not be retired, should he be award home?  I know it sounds a bit ridiculous in this situation.

 

 

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Mudisfun    399
6 minutes ago, stkjock said:

can't help with the call, however, raised a few thoughts for this novice:

 

once the ball goes into DBT - can an out be recorded? the ball is immediately dead and time is called as I understand it.

 

if the ball is carried to DBT - and the runner has not be retired, should he be award home?  I know it sounds a bit ridiculous in this situation.

 

 

I was just thinking those same questions...

 

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CJK    80

Well, the lead runner was out when he left the field and entered DBT, so he's definitely not scoring.  An aggressive and repeated signal is appropriate, and may have prevented the catcher from taking the ball off the field to tag him, which could have saved you the rest of the circus.

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stkjock    272
Just now, CJK said:

Well, the lead runner was out when he left the field and entered DBT, so he's definitely not scoring.  An aggressive and repeated signal is appropriate, and may have prevented the catcher from taking the ball off the field to tag him, which could have saved you the rest of the circus.

is that by interp?  I ask because before I posted my questions, I looked at OBR and what I could find in FED online for what the call is when a runner goes into DBT and found nothing, not saying it't not there, just couldn't find it myself.

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noumpere    2,413
1 minute ago, stkjock said:

is that by interp?  I ask because before I posted my questions, I looked at OBR and what I could find in FED online for what the call is when a runner goes into DBT and found nothing, not saying it't not there, just couldn't find it myself.

801(c).  And, if the field is that wet / slippery, the game should be postponed / suspended.

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stkjock    272
2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

801(c).  And, if the field is that wet / slippery, the game should be postponed / suspended.

8.01(c)? new OBR? Those rules apply to the umpire it seems

 

Quote

8.01 Umpire Qualifications and Authority 

 

 

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noumpere    2,413
1 hour ago, stkjock said:

8.01(c)? new OBR? Those rules apply to the umpire it seems

(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically
covered in these rules.

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Rich Ives    956
3 hours ago, noumpere said:

(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically
covered in these rules.

When a runner is out IS in the rules.  Can't use this, 

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ElkOil    694
6 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Strange play, what do you think?

OBR, 1 out, R2.  Batter singles to RC.   R2 trying to score, takes a VERY wide turn past 3rd, slips on wet grass and slides straight through the dugout gate.  F2, now with ball in hand, follows R2 in to the dugout and tags him while he's trying to get up from the tangled pile of bats and helmets.  Everybody, including me, is having a good laugh at the whole situation.  I don't believe I actually made an OUT call or signal.

Now I see the batter/runner standing on 2nd and call TIME.    I see nobody is hurt, and am thinking the play is all done.  But wait, OC approaches and asks "since the catcher carried the ball in to DBT, how many bases does my runner get?"  For what it's worth, I can't honestly say where BR was when F2 (and the ball) left the field...but my instinct says he had not yet reached 2nd.  Talked it over with partner, and we sent BR to 3rd.  Nobody had any complaints about it.  Just wondering what some of you guys think.

What was your call regarding the runner in the dugout?

I can't find anything in my initial search about runners going into DBT, so given my understanding of the rules, I'd award the runner in the dugout home and the other runner 3B. It seems strange that a runner leaving the field of play unintentionally isn't covered, but I wouldn't want to call him out for abandonment, since he didn't abandon anything -- since due to circumstances beyond his control, he left LBT.

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noumpere    2,413
15 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

When a runner is out IS in the rules.  Can't use this, 

I didn't say the runner was out -- I said a runner unintentionally entering DBT is not covered.  If someone wants to use the "if it's not disallowed, it's allowed" structure that we often do, that's fine.

 

 

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Senor Azul    155

I found the following text in the 2014 PBUC (Section 6: Appeals and Awards, p. 50):

“A runner may no longer return to touch a missed base—home plate or otherwise—after having entered the dugout.”

This same interpretation can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 512, p. 328). I think OBR wants this situation to be handled as an appeal so that the defense does not have to chase the runner into dead ball territory. FED says essentially the same thing in its case play 8.2.2M—the runner may not return if he has touched the steps of the dugout.

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maven    3,881
27 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

I found the following text in the 2014 PBUC (Section 6: Appeals and Awards, p. 50):

“A runner may no longer return to touch a missed base—home plate or otherwise—after having entered the dugout.”

This same interpretation can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 512, p. 328). I think OBR wants this situation to be handled as an appeal so that the defense does not have to chase the runner into dead ball territory. FED says essentially the same thing in its case play 8.2.2M—the runner may not return if he has touched the steps of the dugout.

This provision applies to a runner (or scored runner) intentionally entering the dugout, not one who slid into it.

Kill it, put that runner back at 3B, back up other runners accordingly. noumpere provided the reference.

I'm not giving the defense an out in the dugout, nor the offense a base for carrying the ball into the dugout. Everyone is equally happy/unhappy.

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DVA7130    193

What am I missing here? This is under catch and carry, unless the catcher throws the ball or falls down, him going into the dugout doesn't mean anything.

R2 is definitely being called out, but the play is still live.

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Stk004    599
38 minutes ago, DVA7130 said:

What am I missing here? This is under catch and carry, unless the catcher throws the ball or falls down, him going into the dugout doesn't mean anything.

R2 is definitely being called out, but the play is still live.

"Catch and carry" isn't a thing anymore, at least not under OBR.

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LRZ    122
36 minutes ago, DVA7130 said:

What am I missing here? This is under catch and carry, unless the catcher throws the ball or falls down, him going into the dugout doesn't mean anything.

R2 is definitely being called out, but the play is still live.

The OBR rule was amended a year or two ago. Now, the ball becomes dead once a fielder makes a catch and steps or falls into DBT. OBR 5.06(b)(3)(C) and Comment: "If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should step or fall into any out-of-play area, the ball is dead and each runner shall . . . advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder entered such out-of-play area.

 

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DVA7130    193
49 minutes ago, LRZ said:

The OBR rule was amended a year or two ago. Now, the ball becomes dead once a fielder makes a catch and steps or falls into DBT. OBR 5.06(b)(3)(C) and Comment: "If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should step or fall into any out-of-play area, the ball is dead and each runner shall . . . advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder entered such out-of-play area.

 

Damn. That's no fun. I don't really expect fundamental rules like that to change, but I guess I should browse this site more than just the offseason.

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Jimurray    542
3 hours ago, DVA7130 said:

Damn. That's no fun. I don't really expect fundamental rules like that to change, but I guess I should browse this site more than just the offseason.

Or perhaps visit MLB.com around Jan or Feb and look at page iv mas o menos in the rule book for the changes. You did know about the intentional walk and declaring a windup? Right? Or is everyone in the Utrip, select world unaware of current OBR.

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DVA7130    193
2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Or perhaps visit MLB.com around Jan or Feb and look at page iv mas o menos in the rule book for the changes. You did know about the intentional walk and declaring a windup? Right? Or is everyone in the Utrip, select world unaware of current OBR.

Hey, I know OBR well. Damn well IMHO. I check FED each spring, because I know they're volatile. I don't really expect MLB to fiddle with rare umpire-level knowledge rules that aren't going to make media time.

But point taken, spring will include checking the new book not just re-reading.

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Jimurray    542
1 hour ago, DVA7130 said:

Hey, I know OBR well. Damn well IMHO. I check FED each spring, because I know they're volatile. I don't really expect MLB to fiddle with rare umpire-level knowledge rules that aren't going to make media time.

But point taken, spring will include checking the new book not just re-reading.

Make it late winter. Spring is too late.

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noumpere    2,413
13 hours ago, DVA7130 said:

Damn. That's no fun. I don't really expect fundamental rules like that to change, but I guess I should browse this site more than just the offseason.

And, "catch and carry" wouldn't apply in the OP anyway since it wasn't a catch.

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basejester    395

My sense of fair play is telling me the runner is out.

I don't see anything in Senior Azul's PBUC interpretation about intent.  (If there's context that affects that sentence, I could be convinced it doesn't apply.)

 

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DVA7130    193
On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 8:02 AM, noumpere said:

And, "catch and carry" wouldn't apply in the OP anyway since it wasn't a catch.

'Catch and Carry' didn't mean there had to be a catch... just covered carrying a ball into deadball, which 97% of the time was preceded by a catch. This scenario would have been one of the other 2%.

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