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3rd New One on me


VolUmp
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Same AmLegion Game.

1st batter of the inning.

Hits a deep and high ball over foul ground on the LF side.

F7 makes a great effort to get to the ball and gloves it over his head,

I call catch after he's taken about 4 controlled steps toward the wall.

He continues to slow his momentum to the wall, about 8 more steps, then BANG ... collides with the wall and drops the ball.

I had already called the catch, no one knew enough to argue (or maybe it was the fact that the score was 9-0), but who here would have called it a no-catch based on the fact that there was a collision with the wall and no voluntary release?

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Not only would have I called no catch, I have called no catch in a pretty similar situation already this year. Now would I have reversed the call if I already said catch, especially in a blowout? Maybe not, but timing and waiting for that vol release or at least a clear completion of the catch (let's not go down the useless rabbit hole of absurd examples of a fielder holding the ball, trotting in, and accidentally dropping the ball just before leaving the infield) can help in not getting into a potential reversal situation.

In your situation, it's somewhat HTBT. Did you think the process of the catch was over, or do you think in retrospect it was a rushed or anticipated call?

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I have a no catch.  VolUmp, I think (I admit that I am reading between the lines of your OP) that you realize that your timing was too quick.  In any event, based on your OP, I personally would say that your timing was too quick.

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ditto on the "no catch" .  I don't know if it's a bad habit or not, but somewhere along the way, I have picked up a technique that my partners often appreciate.  On the first touch, I point to the fielder, then after the catch/no catch determination, signal accordingly.  This gives my partner an added visual as to when the runners can legally leave the base.  I have also often use this where fields have "hidden" areas (i.e. in play area past the dugout, but not visible from HP).

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2 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

I get the voluntary release requirement, but after the fielder takes a total of 12 steps where he had the ball under control is that not a catch? 

Do younger ages get the "benefit of the doubt?

Just askin'.

There's no "magic" number of steps.

If he regains control of himself and changes direction, then we'll count that a catch. Same if he starts jogging in after recording the third out—once he regains control of himself.

Younger ages are an excellent time to learn how to play the game properly.

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Another vote for "no catch."
I might be the slowest in my association to rule on catch/no catch: some of our guys are signalling that while the ball is entering the glove.


I notice the shirt logo...what part of the Buckeye State do you hail from?


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15 hours ago, scrounge said:

Did you think the process of the catch was over, or do you think in retrospect it was a rushed or anticipated call?

I certainly didn't feel that I rushed the call after four controlled steps.  I understand that by the book, the process of the catch was not over.  He was not stumbling or regaining his balance.  I just never envisioned him taking 8 more steps.  He didn't look like he needed to.  I'm not even sure how many people even knew he dropped the ball after he hit the side wall.  He put both hands out to stop himself and the ball clearly came loose and dropped to the ground.  He scooped it up and threw it in and no one was the wiser.

There's a great video clip of Eric Davis playing for the Cardinals in 1999 making a diving catch and thus saving a no-no for Rookie Jose' Jimenez.  He stood up, thumped himself on the chest with his glove, and the ball popped out.  You can see him peek over his shoulder as if to say, "Don't even think about pulling the no "voluntary release" BS."

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If this was a 'routine' catch, why signal at all. I have been taught that if everyone knows what it is (like a foul ball over the back stop), then no signal or call is needed. - if he catches it and throws it in, then everyone knows it was a catch. If he continues and drops it, like he did here, then signal 'no catch' or foul - whatever it happens to be.

Don't rush this call - there is no need.

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I am still having trouble with why this would not be a catch. It's not like he took 1 step and ran into the wall and dropped it. I am envisioning that he had control and the process of the catch was over with but just kept running. 

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11 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

I am still having trouble with why this would not be a catch. It's not like he took 1 step and ran into the wall and dropped it. I am envisioning that he had control and the process of the catch was over with but just kept running. 

A catch, by rule, requires a "voluntary release" of the ball, despite his control of the ball, when he hits the wall, it's the wall not the players choice that the ball comes out of the glove.

by strict interp, therefore, it's not a catch.

 

Quote

A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught.

despite he had control, no voluntary and intentional release.

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28 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

I am still having trouble with why this would not be a catch. It's not like he took 1 step and ran into the wall and dropped it. I am envisioning that he had control and the process of the catch was over with but just kept running. 

The process of the catch includes (or, can include -- there are several practical criteria) stopping / changing in a meaningful way the momentum required to catch the ball in the first place.  Running toward a wall and continuing to run toward the wall does not (in my mind's eye) meet that.

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48 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

I am still having trouble with why this would not be a catch. It's not like he took 1 step and ran into the wall and dropped it. I am envisioning that he had control and the process of the catch was over with but just kept running. 

Nobody runs into the wall if they don't have to (significant injuries happen) unless it's due to their momentum.  If it's due to momentum they have not regained body control yet so a drop is a drop.

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8 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

I am still having trouble with why this would not be a catch. It's not like he took 1 step and ran into the wall and dropped it. I am envisioning that he had control and the process of the catch was over with but just kept running. 

Because you are thinking like a player or coach instead of as an umpire.

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On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 3:22 PM, Mussgrass said:

I am still having trouble with why this would not be a catch. It's not like he took 1 step and ran into the wall and dropped it. I am envisioning that he had control and the process of the catch was over with but just kept running. 

He either needs to reach in to take the ball our of his glove (voluntary release) or he needs to make the catch and change his path, like heading towards the infield (switch directions) for it to be a catch. The rules specifically say this.

The act of a fielder in getting secure possession in the hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it, providing the fielder does not use the cap, protector, pocket or any other part of the uniform in getting possession.

In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall demonstrate complete control of the ball and that the release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. Only two circumstances may be interpreted as creating a voluntary and intentional release.

1) When the momentum of the catch is complete; i.e., the fielder has reversed his direction and is running the ball back toward the infield or;

2) When the fielder is reaching for the ball to make a throw.

  a. It is not a catch if, simultaneously with or immediately after contact with the ball, the fielder collides with a player or fence or falls down and, as a result, drops the ball.

  b. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball that then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by that fielder or another defensive player.

  c. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw (i.e., reaching for the ball in the glove) after the catch, the ball shall be judged to have been caught.

  d. It is not a legal catch if either foot is touching dead-ball territory when the catch is made (see 6-1-d-4).

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I had one similar last week in a wood-bat game...2 out, fly to left center, F8 turns around and gets possession, and takes about a dozen steps to the deep wall. It appeared that he may have been in control of his body, but he leaped at the wall and hung over it for a split second. Thankfully, he came back with the ball in his glove--had he not, I would have ruled no catch (and mentioned that to his catcher.)

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