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Infield foul ball

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Guest Jack

Fair or foul

If a batted ball is hit on the ground and it strikes the front or plate side of first or third base and goes cheap foul what would the call be?

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If a batted ball hits 1B, 2B or 3B it is a fair ball, regardless of where it settles.

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5 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

If a batted ball hits 1B, 2B or 3B it is a fair ball, regardless of where it settles.

............as all bases are IN fair territory.  (yes, all of home plate is as well).

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Kevin_K is 100% correct, as long as the ball has not contacted the batter (in a legal batting position) or deflected off a runner/defender (on or over foul territory) before it touches the base.

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2 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

............as all bases are IN fair territory.  (yes, all of home plate is as well).

A batted ball hitting home plate is NOT automatically fair.  Hitting 1, 2, or 3B IS automatically fair. 

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6 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

A batted ball hitting home plate is NOT automatically fair.  Hitting 1, 2, or 3B IS automatically fair. 

Was just including that bit of information for the OP.  Don't go getting all Ricka on me now coach...............

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What is "cheap foul," I wonder?

If a batted ball strikes a base and then goes out of play, it's a fair ball and a 2 base award (ground rule double).

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Guest CAB

Foul ball.  From the MLB rule book the definition of a foul ball is: 

 

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory

between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that

bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls

on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul

territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign

to the natural ground.

 

If a fly ball lands in the infield between home and first base, or

home and third base, and then bounces to foul territory without

touching a player or umpire and before passing first or third

base, it is a foul ball;

The key is yes the base is fair but if the ball doesn't pass 1st or 3rd over the bag it is foul.  Imagine a plate of glass that extends from the home side of 1st and 3rd at the top of the bag.  If the ball hits the front and goes directly foul, with out crossing (breaking glass) the ball is foul.  Same as if the ball hits the rubber and goes directly foul without crossing 1st or 3rd it is a foul ball.

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23 minutes ago, maven said:

What is "cheap foul," I wonder?

If a batted ball strikes a base and then goes out of play, it's a fair ball and a 2 base award (ground rule double).

I wondered the same

 

 

/\ CAB I think you're missing something there... 

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Two pages earlier, same resource:

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

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9 minutes ago, Guest CAB said:

 

The key is yes the base is fair but if the ball doesn't pass 1st or 3rd over the bag it is foul.  Imagine a plate of glass that extends from the home side of 1st and 3rd at the top of the bag.  If the ball hits the front and goes directly foul, with out crossing (breaking glass) the ball is foul.  Same as if the ball hits the rubber and goes directly foul without crossing 1st or 3rd it is a foul ball.

wut

 

It hits the front of the base. The "glass" goes upwards from the front of the base. It's a fair ball. Show your work from a reputable interpretations manual on this statement please.

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15 minutes ago, Guest CAB said:

Foul ball.  From the MLB rule book the definition of a foul ball is: 

 

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory

between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that

bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls

on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul

territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign

to the natural ground.

 

If a fly ball lands in the infield between home and first base, or

home and third base, and then bounces to foul territory without

touching a player or umpire and before passing first or third

base, it is a foul ball;

The key is yes the base is fair but if the ball doesn't pass 1st or 3rd over the bag it is foul.  Imagine a plate of glass that extends from the home side of 1st and 3rd at the top of the bag.  If the ball hits the front and goes directly foul, with out crossing (breaking glass) the ball is foul.  Same as if the ball hits the rubber and goes directly foul without crossing 1st or 3rd it is a foul ball.

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

The rubber isn't beyond first or third base, which is why a batted ball could strike the rubber and go foul. 

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2 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

The rubber isn't beyond first or third base, which is why a batted ball could strike the rubber and go foul. 

What's interesting here is the 90 foot point of the foul line is the back side of the base - that pane of glass is on the back side of the base (hence the wording about PASSING first or third base).  If a fly ball lands beside first base, kicks right and bounces OVER first base without touching it, and settles in foul territory that would, I think, be a foul ball, as it wasn't "past" first base.

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3 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

What's interesting here is the 90 foot point of the foul line is the back side of the base - that pane of glass is on the back side of the base (hence the wording about PASSING first or third base).  If a fly ball lands beside first base, kicks right and bounces OVER first base without touching it, and settles in foul territory that would, I think, be a foul ball, as it wasn't "past" first base.

Nope. A bounding ball that bounces over any portion of first or third base is a fair ball. A ball that bounces over the front left corner (from a BU standpoint) of first base is a fair ball. 

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3 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

What's interesting here is the 90 foot point of the foul line is the back side of the base - that pane of glass is on the back side of the base (hence the wording about PASSING first or third base).  If a fly ball lands beside first base, kicks right and bounces OVER first base without touching it, and settles in foul territory that would, I think, be a foul ball, as it wasn't "past" first base.

I thought the mark was in the middle. According to Wendelstedt, the 90' is between the base points, and the base is centered on the point.

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Just now, udbrky said:

I thought the mark was in the middle. According to Wendelstedt, the 90' is between the base points, and the base is centered on the point.

The 90' from HP to 1B or 3B is to the back edge of the base. I'm not sure about second base. 

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Just now, Stk004 said:

The 90' from HP to 1B or 3B is to the back edge of the base. I'm not sure about second base. 

Maybe. They say to measure to 2B, then to make the point and measure from 2B directly to foul lines 90' and there's the points for 1B and 3B, and that the edge of the base is the line, so that all of the base is in fair territory.

 

I just don't see justification for guest CAB's assertion.

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1 minute ago, udbrky said:

Maybe. They say to measure to 2B, then to make the point and measure from 2B directly to foul lines 90' and there's the points for 1B and 3B, and that the edge of the base is the line, so that all of the base is in fair territory.

 

I just don't see justification for guest CAB's assertion.

His assertion is incorrect due to the definition of a fair ball.

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26 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

The 90' from HP to 1B or 3B is to the back edge of the base. I'm not sure about second base. 

It's the middle of second base. 

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24 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

His assertion is incorrect due to the definition of a fair ball.

Yup. If a batted ball hits ANY part of the base, it's fair.  Even a ball that's cued off the end of the bat and spinning and hits the side of the base and bounces back into foul territory. 

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6 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Yup. If a batted ball hits ANY part of the base, it's fair.  Even a ball that's cued off the end of the bat and spinning and hits the side of the base and bounces back into foul territory. 

Not if it first lands outside the foul line past 1st or 3rd and then backspins to hit the base.   :)

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3 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Was just including that bit of information for the OP.  Don't go getting all Ricka on me now coach...............

A novice reading the thread could read that HP is a base thus think a ball hitting it is fair. We need to be careful answering questions.

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15 minutes ago, CJK said:

Not if it first lands outside the foul line past 1st or 3rd and then backspins to hit the base.   :)

I don't remember ever seeing a ball hit with that much backspin. ;)

 

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14 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

I don't remember ever seeing a ball hit with that much backspin. ;)

 

I can't remember one either, but...  Just last year I watched one land about 8 feet foul, halfway up the 3B line, with enough spin to take it bouncing and rolling to the feet of F6.  I was the consensus "worst umpire ever" for calling that one fair.

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2 hours ago, Stk004 said:

The 90' from HP to 1B or 3B is to the back edge of the base. I'm not sure about second base. 

 

2 hours ago, udbrky said:

I thought the mark was in the middle. According to Wendelstedt, the 90' is between the base points, and the base is centered on the point.

 

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

It's the middle of second base. 

Page 154 is your best diagram.  Back side of first and third is 90 feet, which to 90 degrees creates a point at the middle of second base - meaning that  the sides of second base are not in line with the sides or third or first base, it's six inches out.

If the 90 foot line was the front of first and third base you'd end up with a second base about six inches outside the infield.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2015/official_baseball_rules.pdf

There is a disparity between a fair and foul ball because of this, and how the definitions are worded, but, it's all clearly worded - you effectively get extra fair territory if you're fortunate enough to touch or bounce over the base.

A ball that lands directly beside first base in fair territory, kicks sideways over first base, and settles next to first base in foul territory, is a fair ball, because it went "over" the base, even though it has never passed first base.  (same if it touched the base)

A ball that lands in fair territory in front of first base, rolls to foul territory before reaching first base, and settles in foul territory beside first base is foul, because it has not passed first base in fair territory, and because it didn't go over the base, nor touch the base.

A ball that lands directly beside first base in foul territory, kicks sideways over first base, and settles next to first base, is a fair ball, because it did not pass first base in foul territory.

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