Mistaken Base Path

[UmpRandy]

Pony Baseball.

R3. 1 out.

Batter strikes out.  Both teams believe it's 3 outs and everyone starts walking off the field.  R3 heads to his dugout on 1st base side.  

Plate ump signaling only 2 outs.  R3 by now is  in front of pitchers mound. Seeing only 2 outs, he heads toward home and touches the plate.  

Is R3 out for being out of base path or does the run score?  

[Rich Ives]

7 minutes ago, UmpRandy said:

Pony Baseball.

R3. 1 out.

Batter strikes out.  Both teams believe it's 3 outs and everyone starts walking off the field.  R3 heads to his dugout on 1st base side.  

Plate ump signaling only 2 outs.  R3 by now is  in front of pitchers mound. Seeing only 2 outs, he heads toward home and touches the plate.  

Is R3 out for being out of base path or does the run score?  

"Out of the base path" only comes into play once a tag attempt starts. Did a tag attempt start?  Even if one did the player's basepath then becomes a straight line from his position at the time the attempt starts to the base he is attempting to reach. 

[stkjock]

score the run

[Aging_Arbiter]

2 hours ago, stkjock said:

score the run

Learn to count coach!  This many fingers means 1 out.  This many means 2.

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Learn to count coach!  This many fingers means 1 out.  This many means 2.

Coaches can - players sometimes can't.   Found myself yelling "that's only two" too many times. Kids!

[VolUmp]

Abandonment?

Any runner is out when:

Rule 5.09(b)

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base. 

[maineump]

5 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Abandonment?

Any runner is out when:

Rule 5.09(b)

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base. 

According to OP, he was in front of pitchers mound, still on the field - no abandonment IMO. Score the run.

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Abandonment?

 

No.

 

The options are score the run (which is right by rule), or because it was a kids game and taking the OP at face value that everyone was confused, use good game management and put everyone back.

[VolUmp]

Ah. So just make it up and ignore the rulebook. I get it. Thanks.

Any runner is out when:

Rule 5.09(b) 

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.

Edited June 24, 2017 by VolUmp

[maineump]

2 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Ah. So just make it up and ignore the rulebook. I get it. Thanks.

Any runner is out when:

Rule 5.09(b) 

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.

No one is making anything up or ignoring the rule here - this is not as black and white as you are making it. The entire situation needs to be looked at. There is flexibility in the rule that allows us to make a judgment.

'leaves the base path' - what is the base path the rule is referring to?

Rule 5.09(b) allows (as most do) the umpire to make a judgment. We can't read the minds of runners or defenders, we have to take in the entire play. He would have go to the dugout on the 3rd base side, then it is abandonment. By him crossing the field (which really saved the runner here), he was still in play. Like it has been said above, the baseline is only a 'baseline' when a runner is being directly played on.

The case you state is the runner going towards the 1B dugout after running to 1B and heads into the dugout. Now, what if the runner turns into fair play and heads towards the 3B dugout, gets to the mound area, and decides to go to 2B - he has that right, it is not abandonment until he gets out of play.

I had a HS team do something similar to this to try to get the runner into a rundown to score a runner from 3B. He would get a walk and continue into RF and start towards 2B from the grass in the OF, He was trying to draw a longer throw and draw the IF out to him. It is legal as long as he takes a direct line to the base when he is played on.

[VolUmp]

15 minutes ago, maineump said:

By him crossing the field (which really saved the runner here), he was still in play.

 

On 6/23/2017 at 11:28 AM, UmpRandy said:

R3 by now is in front of pitchers mound.

FAIL.  Maine ... Read the OP ...

[VolUmp]

16 minutes ago, maineump said:

Now, what if the runner turns into fair play and heads towards the 3B dugout, gets to the mound area, and decides to go to 2B - he has that right, it is not abandonment until he gets out of play.

Wrong again.  Read the rule.

[noumpere]

There's an element of "reasonable distance" inherent in the abandonment clause.  Interpretation by Evans would say that the OP does NOT meet this standard (other paragraphs deal with the BR and runners between first and third):

 

A runner who leaves 3rd base for any reason is not out until he enters a dugout when no play is being made
on him. He shall be declared out for abandoning the base paths if a play is being made on him and (1) he is not
making a bona fide effort to reach home plate or return to 3rd; or (2) he runs more than three feet out of his direct
line to avoid a tag.

[Rich Ives]

10 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Ah. So just make it up and ignore the rulebook. I get it. Thanks.

Any runner is out when:

Rule 5.09(b) 

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.

But the runner makes his own.

[maineump]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:51 PM, VolUmp said:

 

FAIL.  Maine ... Read the OP ...

Here is the OP -

R3. 1 out.

Batter strikes out.  Both teams believe it's 3 outs and everyone starts walking off the field.  R3 heads to his dugout on 1st base side.  

Plate ump signaling only 2 outs.  R3 by now is  in front of pitchers mound. Seeing only 2 outs, he heads toward home and touches the plate.  

Is R3 out for being out of base path or does the run score?

Does it not say he is in front of the mound like I posted? There is NO PLAY being made on him, he can take any route he wants to the plate, just as long as he stays in play. If he makes a huge round turn way into foul territory, is he still out? No difference here he just made the path towards the mound.

[maineump]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:55 PM, VolUmp said:

Wrong again.  Read the rule.

Not sure where you are getting your rulings from, but the runner makes his own base path until PLAYED ON by the defense. He could think he was out, then figure out he was safe and continue to the next base. It looks odd, but it is legal.

[VolUmp]

4 hours ago, maineump said:

Does it not say he is in front of the mound like I posted? There is NO PLAY being made on him, he can take any route he wants to the plate, just as long as he stays in play. If he makes a huge round turn way into foul territory, is he still out? No difference here he just made the path towards the mound.

Any runner is out when:

Rule 5.09(b) 

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.

Did he cross the infield to try to trick the defense?  No ... he crossed the infield because he, like nearly everyone, thought there were three outs ... so he was obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.  If Evans or anyone else wants to say the interp is that R3 cannot be out until he's in the dugout, I'd like to see that in writing and accepted by MLB — in the Rulebook Comments.  Otherwise, quite calling a yellow balloon green.  I understand you only have a baseline (basepath) at play when a tag is evident, but this is a clear situation where the runner abandoned.  Not for a second or two and then gets yelled at by his coach ... but as long as it took him to get in front of the mound.  I've already posted this on MLB.com and received the answer using the OP verbatim.

[VolUmp]

4 hours ago, maineump said:

Not sure where you are getting your rulings from.

Well, since I cite my rules, you should know where I get them from.

4 hours ago, maineump said:

He could think he was out, then figure out he was safe and continue to the next base. It looks odd, but it is legal.

Not if he leaves the base path and crosses the infield.  You are misusing two terms that are not identical:  Base Path does not always = Base Line.

[Rich Ives]

37 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Well, since I cite my rules, you should know where I get them from.

Not if he leaves the base path and crosses the infield.  You are misusing two terms that are not identical:  Base Path does not always = Base Line.

He has to believe he was out AND progresses a reasonable distance to the dugout or his position..  MLBUM.

[VolUmp]

5 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

He has to believe he was out AND progresses a reasonable distance to the dugout or his position..  MLBUM.

What's the difference between abandoning because you think you're out, and abandoning because you think the half-inning is over?  The letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule are the same.  Unless there is a comment in the MLBUM or in the comments in OBR (which there is not, as I have looked), I believe what I received back from the rules moderator at MLB.com.

[maineump]

9 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

He has to believe he was out AND progresses a reasonable distance to the dugout or his position..  MLBUM.

The bottom line here is that the defense and offense should both know the situation - like outs.

I agree here, it is a judgment, not black and white - what is a reasonable distance? It is different in every umpire's and coaches minds.

[Rich Ives]

17 hours ago, VolUmp said:

.  Unless there is a comment in the MLBUM .

Gee - where do you think I got my comment?

[Jimurray]

31 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Gee - where do you think I got my comment?

PBUC/MLBUM do entertain, in one of their examples, a call of abandonment on R1 abandoning after touching 2B before R3 scores on a HR, negating any score by R3. I would infer that R1 would not be that close to the dugout when that happened. That play might be in there to convince me and others to not see the abandonment until the winning run scores.

[Rich Ives]

5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

PBUC/MLBUM do entertain, in one of their examples, a call of abandonment on R1 abandoning after touching 2B before R3 scores on a HR, negating any score by R3. I would infer that R1 would not be that close to the dugout when that happened. That play might be in there to convince me and others to not see the abandonment until the winning run scores.

Not relevant. The inning was still in progress in the example. The key here is that apparently EVERYONE thought the inning was over. You can't abandon after the inning is over.  

[VolUmp]

6 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Gee - where do you think I got my comment?

 Come on, Ives, I said unless there's a comment that explains the difference between thinking you're out and thinking the inning is over.

It's the same damned thing!