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Catch/no catch


maven
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Had this today in a showcase game.

R3, no outs, batter hits a fly ball to the LC gap. F7 and F8 converge, and F8 gloves the ball as they collide. Both fielders go to the ground, and F8's glove comes off with the ball in it. R3 tags up and scores. After a moment, F8 recovers, gets up, picks up his glove with the ball in it (the ball never touched the ground), and throws it back into the infield. The defense appeals R3's retouch.

Ruling? Cite applicable rules for full credit.

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Didn't we just have this situation in a college game very recently?

No catch.   2.00 Definitions OBR.   A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

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1 hour ago, BrianC14 said:

Didn't we just have this situation in a college game very recently?

No catch.   2.00 Definitions OBR.   A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

ball actually hit the ground in that case

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Whether it is ultimately determined to be a catch or not, the tag up is only required after the first touch - but for the life of me I can't find the OBR rule that says so (5.09c says "caught") - so is it a case play?   I'm pretty sure FED specifically says that on a caught fly ball the runner needs to tag up until ball is touched.

For catch/no catch - "A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it;...In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional."

And "IN FLIGHT describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder".

if the glove isn't worn by the fielder, then the ball is no longer in flight.  The ball has touched an object other than a fielder...the glove that's on the ground.  I would, however, argue that if he caught the glove before it hit the ground it would be a catch.

So it comes to whether or not the ball was securely in the glove (perhaps), and whether or not there was voluntary/intentional release (doubtful) - no catch.

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

No catch (DEFINITIONS)

R3 scores, appeal answer is SAFE.  8-2-2 Art 6, a, 2 (leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched)

Gee @maven ...I didn't know you could give impromptu quizzes AND hand out credits! :D 

What do we do with these credits?    Are they like S&H Green Stamps or something?    Can I redeem them for plate gear?   

(Man, did I just show my age or what)?

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26 minutes ago, Packerbacker said:

Say F8 dives for a ball, gloves it, rolls over and during that process loses control of the ball. But instead of the ball falling to the ground, it pops up in the air and F8 regloves it and maintains control up through voluntary releases when he tosses it into the infield.

Okay: "F8 dives for a ball, gloves it, rolls over and during that process loses control of the ball. But instead of the ball falling to the ground, it pops up in the air and F8 regloves it and maintains control up through voluntary releases when he tosses it into the infield."

Now what?  ;)

(Oh -- the play you describe is a catch.  No reasonable umpire will have a problem with the play.)

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Suppose the ball bounces straight up off F8's glove as the fielders collide, F7's glove falls to the ground, and the ball lands on it without touching the ground.  After a moment, F8 picks up the ball and throws it back into the infield.

Is this a catch?  Is the situation materially different than maven's OP?

For the record, I think noumpere and Thunderheads are correct: "no catch."  There is no reasonable appeal, because the batter is not required to retouch when there is no catch.

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38 minutes ago, Packerbacker said:

Say F8 dives for a ball, gloves it, rolls over and during that process loses control of the ball. But instead of the ball falling to the ground, it pops up in the air and F8 regloves it and maintains control up through voluntary releases when he tosses it into the infield.

It's a catch. It was still in flight.

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39 minutes ago, CJK said:

Is this a catch?  Is the situation materially different than maven's OP?

 

Of course not.  No.

And, just in an attempt to forestall some additional questions, it's not a catch if the ball is on (or in) a detached glove belonging to F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6 or F9.  Or a player or catch in the bullpen.  Or one belonging to a member of the offensive team.

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I don't mean to dull the point of your razor-sharp wit, but (as noted above) you and I already agree that it is no catch.

My question was meant more for people who didn't already identify the OP as no catch.

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2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Of course not.  No.

And, just in an attempt to forestall some additional questions, it's not a catch if the ball is on (or in) a detached glove belonging to F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6 or F9.  Or a player or catch in the bullpen.  Or one belonging to a member of the offensive team.

My assumption is a detached glove is, under the definition of "in flight", an object other than a fielder, which is why the ball in the detached glove isn't a catch even if picked up after - it's no longer in flight.

So my question is, does this state occur as soon as the glove becomes detached, or as soon as the detached glove touches the ground?  If F8's glove comes off (with ball in it) and then the glove is caught before it hits the ground, would it be a catch - or would the ball cease to be "in flight" the moment it is touching the detached glove?

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6 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

So my question is, does this state occur as soon as the glove becomes detached, or as soon as the detached glove touches the ground?  If F8's glove comes off (with ball in it) and then the glove is caught before it hits the ground, would it be a catch - or would the ball cease to be "in flight" the moment it is touching the detached glove?

That's a very good question indeed.

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1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

My assumption is a detached glove is, under the definition of "in flight", an object other than a fielder, which is why the ball in the detached glove isn't a catch even if picked up after - it's no longer in flight.

So my question is, does this state occur as soon as the glove becomes detached, or as soon as the detached glove touches the ground?  If F8's glove comes off (with ball in it) and then the glove is caught before it hits the ground, would it be a catch - or would the ball cease to be "in flight" the moment it is touching the detached glove?

You answered your own question.

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