Catch/No Catch Review Wake Forest - Florida

[zoops]

Wondering if anyone has video of the no catch that was reviewed and called a catch in the Wake Forest - Florida game yesterday (Monday)?  I did some searching but couldn't find it.  Might not be much to see but someone was asking me about the play so I was curious to see it.  I believe it was in the 2nd or 3rd inning with Florida batting.  

[stkjock]

I saw that live and have looked 3 times for video and haven't found it.  Watch ESPN has it on replay.

 

Was a crazy call and the final adjudication just seemed like a bad rule, properly applied by the umpires, just a poorly written rule for what happened there.

 

Play goes like this:

 

R1& R2, fly ball to deepish RCF, U1 rotates out for call, CF gets under it, catches it cleanly, R2 re-touches and starts to thrid, CF takes ball from glove cleanly as he reaches back to throw, drops the ball, U1 calls no catch, R1 seeing a catch has gone back to first and BR seeing the no catch call is now also standing at first.

Ball comes to F6 who then steps on 2nd, U2 calls R1 out, then time and all heck breaks loose with DTHC and then OTHC after the placement of the runners back at 1st and 2nd

[zoops]

Yes, the rule is that the runners do not advance.  Seems like one where the umpire's mistake put the offense at a disadvantage, wonder why they don't allow for the umpires to place runners as they see appropriate like they do when a catch is reversed to a no catch?  

[stkjock]

oh definitely put the offense at a disadvantage.  it goes from 1st and 3rd and one out to 1st and second

 

good question why the rules don't allow placement. 

[noumpere]

2 minutes ago, stkjock said:

oh definitely put the offense at a disadvantage.  it goes from 1st and 3rd and one out to 1st and second

 

good question why the rules don't allow placement. 

Just like when a catch is changed to no catch, the advance is one base, or just like when a batted ball bounces over the fence the award is two bases -- sometimes it's not fair, and sometimes it benefits one team over the other.  You'd have more arguments over the "proper placement" of the runners if ti was always judgment.

Here's the rule:

10) Changing a call of “no catch” to “catch”: The umpires may conference
after a fair batted ball has been hit into the outfield or on any foul ball to
determine whether a fielder did or did not make a catch.
a) The ball is dead.
b) All action prior to the ball becoming dead shall be disallowed.
c) The batter shall be declared out.
d) All base runners shall be returned to the base they occupied at the time
of the pitch.

[MidAmUmp]

You can't Award bases as you see fit because of base touches/tag ups. 

R2 sees the ball down and takes off for 3rd. Umpire calls it no catch. 

Crew gets together, goes to replay, comes back and says catch. 

R2 never tagged up and cannot now legally tag up because the ball is dead.

So if we place R2 on 3rd because common sense says that's where he would have ended up had we got the call correct to begin with, we either have to also say R2's non tag up is ignored because we screwed up and put him at a disadvantage -OR- we put him at a disadvantage once we put the ball back in play and allow the defense to appeal that R2 didn't tag up -OR- we out him back on 2nd and play on. 

[zoops]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Just like when a catch is changed to no catch, the advance is one base, or just like when a batted ball bounces over the fence the award is two bases -- sometimes it's not fair, and sometimes it benefits one team over the other.  You'd have more arguments over the "proper placement" of the runners if ti was always judgment.

 

True, but they allow for it on a no catch.  It would be a pretty rotten deal if you had a 400 foot fly ball with tying run on third in the 9th inning that was reversed to a catch and your runner isn't allowed to score and you lose by a run.

[BrianC14]

I saw the video somewhere yesterday;  it took a while to get it all sorted out, and initially neither coach was happy (one about the no-catch call, the other about the eventual placement of R2.   Thought sure I'd seen the video posted here....

[stkjock]

36 minutes ago, MidAmUmp said:

You can't Award bases as you see fit because of base touches/tag ups. 

I understand

R2 sees the ball down and takes off for 3rd. Umpire calls it no catch. 

IMHO, It was very clear, R2 tagged and went on the catch, not the dropped ball & no catch call.

Crew gets together, goes to replay, comes back and says catch. 

R2 never tagged up and cannot now legally tag up because the ball is dead.

in this instance he did tag up

So if we place R2 on 3rd because common sense says that's where he would have ended up had we got the call correct to begin with, we either have to also say R2's non tag up is ignored because we screwed up and put him at a disadvantage -OR- we put him at a disadvantage once we put the ball back in play and allow the defense to appeal that R2 didn't tag up -OR- we out him back on 2nd and play on. 

understood

Let me be clear, I never thought that the umpires did anything wrong after the missed catch, they did what the rule mandates. 

[MidAmUmp]

38 minutes ago, stkjock said:

Let me be clear, I never thought that the umpires did anything wrong after the missed catch, they did what the rule mandates. 

I'm speaking in general, not about the exact play that occurred yesterday. I'm just explaining why we can't move runners up with common sense as we can in other situations. In some situations, yes, the runner may tag up (as he did yesterday) in other situations the runner will read the ball down and not tag up...now he's at a disadvantage if we change it to a catch.

So basically our options are - crew consultation/replay if avail., change call and return runners to TOP base

OR

Stay with call on the field and not allow the call to be changed. 

Sucks either way...but the less poopy end of this stick is to leave runners at TOP base. 

[stkjock]

@MidAmUmp - appreciate the insights 

 

Gil's comments - echo much of what's in the thread above

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/06/ncaa-rule-reversing-catch-calls-runner.html

 

 

I wonder if the difference between NCAA & OBR has to do with resources(manpower and equipment) available to place runners. 

[BrianC14]

11 minutes ago, stkjock said:

@MidAmUmp - appreciate the insights 

 

Gil's comments - echo much of what's in the thread above

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/06/ncaa-rule-reversing-catch-calls-runner.html

 

 

I wonder if the difference between NCAA & OBR has to do with resources(manpower and equipment) available to place runners. 

FED allows for it, and I would think their resources are less than NCAA.

[stkjock]

3 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

FED allows for it, and I would think their resources are less than NCAA.

I was thinking specifically on a replay review.   which cannot happen in FED.

[BrianC14]

Just now, stkjock said:

I was thinking specifically on a replay review.   which cannot happen in FED.

 

[MidAmUmp]

9 minutes ago, stkjock said:

@MidAmUmp - appreciate the insights 

 

Gil's comments - echo much of what's in the thread above

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/06/ncaa-rule-reversing-catch-calls-runner.html

 

 

I wonder if the difference between NCAA & OBR has to do with resources(manpower and equipment) available to place runners. 

If the NCAA basically came out and said to hell with any consequences of an incorrect call that is changed on consultation/replay, that would be great. We could ignore the fact a runner didn't tag up or a passing situation, etc. and we just place them where they would have gone. 

Personally I don't see that happening anytime soon. 

Other things to take into consideration are MLB has a very highly trained staff of less than 100 & HD replay with a gazilion camera angles at each ballpark.

We have probably over 3000 umpires who work under NCAA rules with varying levels of ability & replay at probably less than 100 schools (give or take 25) with limited camera angles.

I've offered the advice before that in those situations where you just don't know on a fair/foul (note: this is maybe once every couple of years situation) to leave the ball live because we can always change it to foul and bring them back. It may come to if we just don't know on an outfield catch/no catch to call it a catch because we can always get together and change it to no catch and advance runners. Easier said than done when you have less than a second to decide. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, zoops said:

True, but they allow for it on a no catch.

I'm not sure what you mean, but when a "catch" is changed to a "no catch" there's also no judgment -- all runners advance one base.

[stkjock]

6 minutes ago, MidAmUmp said:

If the NCAA basically came out and said to hell with any consequences of an incorrect call that is changed on consultation/replay, that would be great. We could ignore the fact a runner didn't tag up or a passing situation, etc. and we just place them where they would have gone. 

Personally I don't see that happening anytime soon. 

Other things to take into consideration are MLB has a very highly trained staff of less than 100 & HD replay with a gazilion camera angles at each ballpark.

We have probably over 3000 umpires who work under NCAA rules with varying levels of ability & replay at probably less than 100 schools (give or take 25) with limited camera angles.

I've offered the advice before that in those situations where you just don't know on a fair/foul (note: this is maybe once every couple of years situation) to leave the ball live because we can always change it to foul and bring them back. It may come to if we just don't know on an outfield catch/no catch to call it a catch because we can always get together and change it to no catch and advance runners. Easier said than done when you have less than a second to decide. 

oh, I get it and it makes sense, that's why I commented on the resources, so I think we are in agreement 

[zoops]

10 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I'm not sure what you mean, but when a "catch" is changed to a "no catch" there's also no judgment -- all runners advance one base.

Thanks, I must have been thinking of changing a foul ball to fair.