Foul reversed to fair

[Jimurray]

This play happened tonite and no one had a problem with it because it was a 10 run rule that the loser took as a reason to get out of town and live to fight another day. 

10th run on 3B. 4 man crew. Grounder to 3B. Fair ball hits either F5's glove in front of the base or hits the base and bounces toward the 3B dugout. F5 chases it while R3 scores and U3 signals foul. Saw PU looking down the line but did not see a signal. Might have pointed fair or did a WTF but did not come up strong with a fair point. Umps get together and declare it fair, run scored, everyone goes home happy.

So, given a little tighter game what do we have? "an ump called the ball foul" he poached the PU call. It's possible differing decisions were rendered on the play. But I don't see a FED rule about the PU ruling about different decisions in FED. They dodged a bullet as we all occassionally do.

 

 

 

[Mister B]

Once it's foul, it's a dead ball. There's no way to revive it. 

Sounds like this one, they just post dated the death certificate. 

[White47]

I know this is a HS thread, but in NCAA you can change foul to fair as long as its in the outfield. 

If they do they crew gets together and place runners where they feel they would have got if the correct call would have been made. Umpires should be conservative on there placement though. (Appendix E 1-8 note 1).

The best Idea is just not to miss one that's so obvious you can change it to fair. 

[Stk004]

I can't speak to NCAA as @White47 did, but @Mister B has it correct for high school. OBR we can change the call from foul to fair as long as nobody reacted to it, allowing the play to continue as if the call had been fair all along. 

[ALStripes17]

Once it's foul, it's a dead ball. There's no way to revive it. 
Sounds like this one, they just post dated the death certificate. 

If an umpire just pointed and didn't verbalize 'Foul' in FED, Im not sure we have a situation where the play is dead.

FWIW, an umpire in FED can verbalize foul and ball remains live if the batted ball doesn't touch the ground ... I don't like the ultimate 'called foul, always foul' mantra. We need to teach the rules when training.

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[BrianC14]

19 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

If an umpire just pointed and didn't verbalize 'Foul' in FED, Im not sure we have a situation where the play is dead.

FWIW, an umpire in FED can verbalize foul and ball remains live if the batted ball doesn't touch the ground ... I don't like the ultimate 'called foul, always foul' mantra. We need to teach the rules when training.

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From the OP:

 Grounder to 3B. Fair ball hits either F5's glove in front of the base or hits the base and bounces toward the 3B dugout. F5 chases it while R3 scores and U3 signals foul. 

From that, it's clear that it touched the ground, but what isn't clear is if foul was CALLED or just signaled. 

[ALStripes17]

From the OP:
 Grounder to 3B. Fair ball hits either F5's glove in front of the base or hits the base and bounces toward the 3B dugout. F5 chases it while R3 scores and U3 signals foul. 
From that, it's clear that it touched the ground, but what isn't clear is if foul was CALLED or just signaled. 

My comments still stand then. We have some clarity that is needed in the OP.

And the other clarification was to a comment that insinuated 'called foul, always foul', which is an untrue statement.

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[Mister B]

The problem is that if someone reacted to that foul call, the play is blown. As for the batted ball not touching the ground, that should be true in rulesets. A caught foul ball is still live. Is it not. 

I'm not calling anything foul until it's actually foul. I usually do signal which side of the line the ball is on just so everyone knows that I see the ball. I'm not sure if in the OP if the foul was ever verbalized. 

[BrianC14]

8 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

My comments still stand then. We have some clarity that is needed in the OP.

And the other clarification was to a comment that insinuated 'called foul, always foul', which is an untrue statement.

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Importance of pregame discussion of responsibility / coverage, as well as each man knowing his specific area of responsibility.   

I'm guessing that 4 man high school crews aren't the norm in most areas.  That would make it especially important to have a thorough discussion of coverages. 

Edited to add:  I don't see why the score has anything to do with the obvious "foul up" by the umpires. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by BrianC14

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

My comments still stand then. We have some clarity that is needed in the OP.

And the other clarification was to a comment that insinuated 'called foul, always foul', which is an untrue statement.

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I'm aware of the touching the ground criteria which did happen in the OP. My wording was questioning whether U3's call, as "an umpire", and not the correct umpire,  could be overruled by the PU who I could not determine if he signaled anything. Mechanics wise it was the PU call and it should have been a demonstrative point fair based on the play.

The foul signal by U3 was emphatic but ignored by the runner and by the time F5 retrieved the ball it did  not matter if he reacted to the foul call (noise prevented me from hearing anything). Once relaxed U3 was still signaling foul and then time was called as the umps got together and reversed the foul and scored the run. I'm guessing the score mattered to the loser and prolonging the game was not in his interest, especially when the foul call was obviously in error. In a tighter game a knowledeable coach might have an issue with the reversal as per:

2.16.1 SITUATION A:  On a count of 1-ball, 2-strikes, B1 hits a fly ball down the right-field line. While the ball is in the air, the umpire inadvertently declares ‘foul ball’; (a) F9 catches the ball in flight, (b) the ball falls to the ground in fair territory, (c) the ball falls to the ground in foul territory.  RULING: (a) The batter is out and the ball remains live, (b) and (c) the ball is immediately dead as soon as it touches the ground; the batter returns to bat with a count of 1-2.

Rule: 2.16.1 2.16.1 SITUATION B:  On a count of 1-ball, 2-strikes, B1 hits a ground ball down the third-base line and the umpire inadvertently declares “foul ball.” F5 fields the ball in fair territory and throws to F3.  RULING: The ball is dead immediately once it hits the ground; B1 returns to bat with a count of 1-2. MLB just had a PU overule a double call, incorrectly I might add. But I don't see wording in FED about if differing calls are made the PU will make a determination and I don't know if that could have been applied in this game.

[Jimurray]

Just found game on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Injhnom4Tow

Go to 5:10 for play which still leaves me a little confused, as was this crew regarding 4 man if you watch the whole game. But that confusion did not affect any of the plays in the game.

[BrianC14]

16 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Just found game on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Injhnom4Tow

Go to 5:10 for play which still leaves me a little confused, as was this crew regarding 4 man if you watch the whole game. But that confusion did not affect any of the plays in the game.

Tough to see where the ball hit (from 5:12 to 5:13 there's a big gap, it seems).   What I don't see is U3 making a call of any kind, and by the time the camera gets back to home plate area, PU has already moved off the line.   

In the state where I work, the standard is that PU has the line "up to" the bag(s).  From the front of the bag is the responsibility of U1 and U3 if it's 3-man or 4-man.   I know that I've had other areas of the country have a different standard for this coverage.   

[Gfoley4]

8 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

Tough to see where the ball hit (from 5:12 to 5:13 there's a big gap, it seems).   What I don't see is U3 making a call of any kind, and by the time the camera gets back to home plate area, PU has already moved off the line.   

In the state where I work, the standard is that PU has the line "up to" the bag(s).  From the front of the bag is the responsibility of U1 and U3 if it's 3-man or 4-man.   I know that I've had other areas of the country have a different standard for this coverage.   

looks like he's pointing foul to me

[Jimurray]

26 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

looks like he's pointing foul to me

I was at the game. When the camera panned away he gave a foul signal.