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Guest Bazeball

Runner returns to 3B after touching home plate

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High School playoff game. Runner misses 3B then touches and crosses home plate, and starts toward dugout 3 or 4 steps. Third base coach yells at him to return to 3B, and he does reach 3B safely before retouching home plate or being tagged or appealed by defense. What is the call?

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What was the play, IIRC, that makes a difference, I.e., HR and 4 base award, vs ball in play

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5 minutes ago, stkjock said:

What was the play, IIRC, that makes a difference, I.e., HR and 4 base award, vs ball in play

Base hit, ball in play.

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36 minutes ago, Guest Bazeball said:

High School playoff game. Runner misses 3B then touches and crosses home plate, and starts toward dugout 3 or 4 steps. Third base coach yells at him to return to 3B, and he does reach 3B safely before retouching home plate or being tagged or appealed by defense. What is the call?

If there is no appeal for missing 3B then the run scores.

If they appeal the miss of 3B it's moot as the runner us standing on it - safe.  What they should then do is appeal his failure to retouch HP on the return to 3B which should be upheld.

 

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I'm not clear on what happened. Here's my guess:

R2, outs don't matter. Batter gets a hit, R2 misses 3B and scores. 3BC calls him back to 3B, and he returns there, without(?) retouching HP as he returns. Play ends with R2 standing on 3B.

We would need to be careful about an appeal, esp. a dead-ball appeal. "He missed the base!" Yes, but which one? Odds are that the defense is more likely to be aware of the miss of 3B than HP. Since R2 DID touch 3B last time by, an appeal of the miss of 3B should be denied.

Since R2 had to touch HP as he returned, he is liable for a missed base appeal there.

7 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

If there is no appeal for missing 3B then the run scores.

You seem to be reading the play as I do, with R2 ending on 3B. In that case, no run has scored, as the runner has retreated from HP to 3B during play.

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1 hour ago, maven said:

You seem to be reading the play as I do, with R2 ending on 3B. In that case, no run has scored, as the runner has retreated from HP to 3B during play.

And if one reads it as "R2 retouched third then advanced to an re-touched home" no appeals are upheld.  You do have to wonder what the heck the defense is doing to allow all this "extra" baserunning.

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It appears I've gotten this whole unscoring a run business tangled up in my head. 

When can a runner retouch home and "unscore" his run to go back and touch third, and when is he unable to legally do so? I know he can't if a following runner has scored but it appears there's more to it. 

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3 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

It appears I've gotten this whole unscoring a run business tangled up in my head. 

When can a runner retouch home and "unscore" his run to go back and touch third, and when is he unable to legally do so? I know he can't if a following runner has scored but it appears there's more to it. 

If the run is LEGALLY scored (the runner touched all the bases; didn't leave early on a caught ball), he can't unscore his run.

If a following runner has scored, he can't go back.

If the runner missed third and: 1) OBR and FED -- reaches the plate after the ball becomes dead; 2) FED only -- reaches the plate and the ball then becomes dead, the runner can't return (this is the same for any missed base / base left too soon)

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10 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If the run is LEGALLY scored (the runner touched all the bases; didn't leave early on a caught ball), he can't unscore his run.

If a following runner has scored, he can't go back.

If the runner missed third and: 1) OBR and FED -- reaches the plate after the ball becomes dead; 2) FED only -- reaches the plate and the ball then becomes dead, the runner can't return (this is the same for any missed base / base left too soon)

The run has scored unless there is an appeal because 3B is considered touched unless it is appealed.   Look at it this way - is a runner went 1B to 3B and failed to touch 2B but no one appealed it would you not allow his run if he scored later in the inning? No.  The base (in this case 3B) was touched until proven otherwise. Lack of an appeal makes it legal.

You cannot unscore a run.

The run scores if not appealed.

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14 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

The run has scored unless there is an appeal because 3B is considered touched unless it is appealed.   Look at it this way - is a runner went 1B to 3B and failed to touch 2B but no one appealed it would you not allow his run if he scored later in the inning? No.  The base (in this case 3B) was touched until proven otherwise. Lack of an appeal makes it legal.

You cannot unscore a run.

The run scores if not appealed.

The runner you claim scored is standing on 3B. Now what? If the next batter singles and (now) R3 touches HP, does he score another run?

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30 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

The run has scored unless there is an appeal because 3B is considered touched unless it is appealed.   Look at it this way - is a runner went 1B to 3B and failed to touch 2B but no one appealed it would you not allow his run if he scored later in the inning? No.  The base (in this case 3B) was touched until proven otherwise. Lack of an appeal makes it legal.

You cannot unscore a run.

The run scores if not appealed.

So what should we do in  OP situation. Tell runner at third that he scored and to go back to dugout?? Seems like that might open up a can of worms especially if they appealed and you called the runner out because I think it makes it more obvious that there was a base running infraction. Not saying its wrong, just not something I would want to have to do. 

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7 minutes ago, White47 said:

So what should we do in  OP situation. Tell runner at third that he scored and to go back to dugout?? Seems like that might open up a can of worms especially if they appealed and you called the runner out because I think it makes it more obvious that there was a base running infraction. Not saying it wrong, just not something I would want to have to do. 

Why would we do this? He didn't legally score, he created another infraction in fixing the first one, and is liable to be put out for the second one.

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6 minutes ago, Matt said:

Why would we do this? He didn't legally score, he created another infraction in fixing the first one, and is liable to be put out for the second one.

I don't think you should. I thought that was what Rich Ives was saying. I thought maybe I missed something. I was just wondering what he would do in OP. 

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31 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

The run has scored unless there is an appeal because 3B is considered touched unless it is appealed.   Look at it this way - is a runner went 1B to 3B and failed to touch 2B but no one appealed it would you not allow his run if he scored later in the inning? No.  The base (in this case 3B) was touched until proven otherwise. Lack of an appeal makes it legal.

You cannot unscore a run.

The run scores if not appealed.

Incorrect. The run was never legally scored, which means it can be unscored. By returning to third, he unscored his run.

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14 hours ago, Matt said:

Incorrect. The run was never legally scored, which means it can be unscored. By returning to third, he unscored his run.

When the runner returned to 3B, time was immediately called. The defense made a dead ball appeal by tagging the runner while standing on 3B. U3 signaled SAFE not knowing whether or not the runner had retouched HP. The DHC then made a verbal appeal of the runner missing 3B. That appeal was denied. He then made a verbal appeal that the runner failed to retouch HP prior to returning to 3B.

Now, what should the call have been?

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19 minutes ago, Guest Bazeball said:

When the runner returned to 3B, time was immediately called. The defense made a dead ball appeal by tagging the runner while standing on 3B. U3 signaled SAFE not knowing whether or not the runner had retouched HP. The DHC then made a verbal appeal of the runner missing 3B. That appeal was denied. He then made a verbal appeal that the runner failed to retouch HP prior to returning to 3B.

Now, what should the call have been?

Out for failing to retouch home.

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1 hour ago, Guest Bazeball said:

When the runner returned to 3B, time was immediately called. The defense made a dead ball appeal by tagging the runner while standing on 3B. U3 signaled SAFE not knowing whether or not the runner had retouched HP.

  1. Minor point: dead-ball appeals are verbal, so the tag was moot.
  2. U3 has no business making a ruling unless he knows what exactly is being appealed and which umpire should be ruling on it.
1 hour ago, Guest Bazeball said:

The DHC then made a verbal appeal of the runner missing 3B. That appeal was denied. He then made a verbal appeal that the runner failed to retouch HP prior to returning to 3B.

Now, what should the call have been?

As (nearly) everyone has been saying, by failing to touch HP on the last time by, this runner is liable to be out on appeal. I'm guessing that your question is: having appealed the missed base at 3B, can the defense still appeal the miss at HP?

The answer is yes: multiple appeals are explicitly allowed by rule (8-2-6f).

PU should rule on the appeal of the miss at HP, even if the appeal is "directed" to the "wrong umpire" (8-2-6c).

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