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Guest Andy the ump

Deke play

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Guest Andy the ump   
Guest Andy the ump

I am pretty sure that the "Deke Play" (faking a tag, yelling "I got it" by the runner, etc.)  has been deemed illegal by MLB but I'm struggling to find the reference in the rule book. Please help

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CJK    80

The rules against those things are Unwritten.  In general, the penalty for violating an Unwritten Rule is assessed by the other team's pitcher.

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Gfoley4    61

I'm no FED expert, but I believe a "fake tag" is considered obstruction, but a warning is given for the first attempt in a game. FED also has a rule on verbal interference but I do not know the specifics. There is nothing about these in OBR.

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maven    3,885
10 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

I'm no FED expert, but I believe a "fake tag" is considered obstruction, but a warning is given for the first attempt in a game.

In case of a fake tag in a FED game:

  • First time: OBS + team warning
  • Subsequently: OBS + EJ

A fake tag is an intentional act by a fielder holding an empty glove down to prompt a runner to slide unnecessarily. That hindrance is the basis for ruling it OBS.

It is also a safety issue, which is the basis for the warning and EJ.

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Guest Nick   
Guest Nick

No prohibition against "Fake Tag" in OBR. 

Prohibited in Fed. See 2-22-2 

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MT73    40

However-- OBS. R2 is heading to third and will easily score because the ball is in centerfield.

F5 straddles the bag, fakes a catch and then proceeds to lay down a tag on the runner who is now sliding into the base.

I know that a fake tag is not obstruction in OBR but when I see this--and I have-- I am still calling obstruction by F5 and will send the runner home when all play has ceased.

Is anyone going to say that this is not hindering the runner?

No, I cannot get him on a fake tag but he sure is heck blocking the base path.

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Rich Ives    956
58 minutes ago, MT73 said:

However-- OBS. R2 is heading to third and will easily score because the ball is in centerfield.

F5 straddles the bag, fakes a catch and then proceeds to lay down a tag on the runner who is now sliding into the base.

I know that a fake tag is not obstruction in OBR but when I see this--and I have-- I am still calling obstruction by F5 and will send the runner home when all play has ceased.

Is anyone going to say that this is not hindering the runner?

No, I cannot get him on a fake tag but he sure is heck blocking the base path.

You might get away with it in an amateur game but not in a pro game.  The 3B coach is there for a reason.  (Translation: Why is he sliding when the coach is telling him to continue?)

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CJK    80

Tricking the runner is not the same as hindering the runner.

If the R2 slides into 3B and stops, how did F5 hinder R2?  F5 didn't keep R2 from doing anything, especially if F5 "straddles" the bag by putting the left foot on the LF side of the base and the right foot on the foul side of the base.  F5 isn't taking the turn away from R2, so there's no hindrance.

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MT73    40

Well I do not do pro ball and I have never seen this happen at that lev

CJK -- he is in the runners path when the ball is in centerfield.

How is this not obstruction?

The only way the runner could touch the bag would have been to stop and place his foot between R5's legs.

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White47    52
Tricking the runner is not the same as hindering the runner.
If the R2 slides into 3B and stops, how did F5 hinder R2?  F5 didn't keep R2 from doing anything, especially if F5 "straddles" the bag by putting the left foot on the LF side of the base and the right foot on the foul side of the base.  F5 isn't taking the turn away from R2, so there's no hindrance.

Doesn't matter if it's the same or not. It is explicitly laid out in the rules that its OBS.



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Rich Ives    956
5 hours ago, White47 said:


Doesn't matter if it's the same or not. It is explicitly laid out in the rules that its OBS.



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No it isn't.

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maven    3,885
11 hours ago, CJK said:

Tricking the runner is not the same as hindering the runner.

If the R2 slides into 3B and stops, how did F5 hinder R2?  F5 didn't keep R2 from doing anything, especially if F5 "straddles" the bag by putting the left foot on the LF side of the base and the right foot on the foul side of the base.  F5 isn't taking the turn away from R2, so there's no hindrance.

This ruling is specifically for OBR.

I agree with the general statement that, for pro ball, tricking ≠ hindering. Pro players are expected to know more than amateur players and to know how to read their base coaches.

I also agree that, if F5 does not physically hinder R2, I'd have no call for OBS.

That said, if F5 is on or over the base (no matter where his feet are) and R2 slows down at all, that will almost certainly be OBS. Contact is not required for hindrance, and this is not a situation where FED's "denying access to the base without the ball" concept comes into play (and even for FED, denying access is merely one way to obstruct, not a requirement of all OBS — F5 standing on 3B with no fake tag is still guilty of OBS in FED). This fielder is not making a play, and he is physically hindering a runner who has the right to run where he wishes, including through or around 3B.

If F5 is away from the base and pretends to be getting a throw when the ball is rolling toward the wall, then that's probably nothing. At instructional levels it might be a "don't do that."

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ofhs93    46

What is the official ruling on FED and verbal interference? I've had this happen this year in a game that I was coaching as opposed to officiating. From the way things ended the offender was served justice via karma...but it would be good to know the official stance in LL OBR and FED. I still feel like it's unsportsmanlike conduct and should be punished as such...but feelings and actual rules are 2 different things ;)

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noumpere    2,413

Here's the fed rule (emphasis added)  MPte that the OBR rule does not contain the word "verbal":

 2-21-1

ART. 1 . . . Offensive interference is an act (physical or verbal) by the team at bat:

a. which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play; or

b. when a runner creates malicious contact with any fielder, with or without the ball, in or out of the baseline; or

c. a coach physically assists a runner during playing action.

 

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maven    3,885
8 hours ago, ofhs93 said:

What is the official ruling on FED and verbal interference? I've had this happen this year in a game that I was coaching as opposed to officiating. From the way things ended the offender was served justice via karma...but it would be good to know the official stance in LL OBR and FED. I still feel like it's unsportsmanlike conduct and should be punished as such...but feelings and actual rules are 2 different things ;)

A fielder shouting "I got it" as in the OP would not rise to the level of verbal OBS. Paradigm instances of verbal OBS have fielders shouting what offensive team members or coaches would shout (for instance, "back!" or "tag up!"). Case play:
 

Quote

2.22.1 SITUATION A: R1 attempts to steal second. F2, upon receiving the pitch, throws a pop-up to F6. F5 yells “get back, get back.” R1 thinks B2 has hit a popup and starts back to first where he is tagged out.

RULING: This is verbal obstruction and R1 shall be awarded second base.

 

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ofhs93    46
 

I always felt the "I got it" on a pop up needed to be addressed some way...particularly in the lower levels....but I have not seen anyone ever post a defined penalty for doing it. Personally...I would find anyway possible to give a team an unsportsmanlike if they pulled it while I was working a game.

 

I'm talking in an instance where the BR or batter shouts I got it as they are running down the line or past the fielders...THATS something that needs to be dealt with.

 

Sorry...I should have clarified that in the 1st post.

 

 

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ElkOil    694
16 minutes ago, ofhs93 said:

I always felt the "I got it" on a pop up needed to be addressed some way...particularly in the lower levels....but I have not seen anyone ever post a defined penalty for doing it. Personally...I would find anyway possible to give a team an unsportsmanlike if they pulled it while I was working a game.

I'm talking in an instance where the BR or batter shouts I got it as they are running down the line or past the fielders...THATS something that needs to be dealt with.

Nip it early when it happens. If I hear it, I'll tell the coach to have his players knock it off. If it resulted in a fielder missing the catch, that's INT.

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maven    3,885
23 minutes ago, ofhs93 said:

I'm talking in an instance where the BR or batter shouts "I got it" as they are running down the line or past the fielders...THATS something that needs to be dealt with.

Sorry, you did indeed say "verbal interference," and I responded with a post about OBS. The principle is similar: if a runner shouts something that the defense would say (such as "I got it") AND that causes hindrance, you can get INT for it. Case play:
 

Quote

2.21.1 SITUATION A: With R1 on second base, B2 hits a grounder to F6. Just as F6 starts to throw to first base, R1 on his way to third base, yells at F6, which startles F6, causing him to throw the ball over F3’s head into dead-ball territory.

RULING: R1 is called out immediately for verbal interference, and if in the judgment of the umpire the interference prevented a possible double play, B2 also would be called out.

 

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noumpere    2,413
54 minutes ago, MT73 said:

But there are Federation rules.

Does OBR and Babe Ruth have similar rules?

Not by rule.  You can enforce it though, and no one will know the difference.  ;)

 

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ofhs93    46
Not by rule.  You can enforce it though, and no one will know the difference. 
 

That's going to be *my* way of dealing with it moving forward. If it happens in a game I'm doing the offender is being called out on interference and that's that. If the coach wants to try to protest that to the association go ahead and try to explain that away.


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stevis    86

Just quickly searched through the 2017 LL Rules and Instruction Manual.   One of the instructor comments under interference mentions it could be verbal.  That's good enough for me to grab it on either INT or OBS at this level.   Would be better if that at least made it into the rulebook, or the approved rulings, but so it goes.

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noumpere    2,413
10 hours ago, stevis said:

Just quickly searched through the 2017 LL Rules and Instruction Manual. 

I should add that my comment above was in reference to OBR only.  I don't know about all the various youth organizations, but I would hope that they would have the "verbal" addition to the INT and OBS rules.

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Guest Andy the ump   
Guest Andy the ump

Here the situation that led to my initial question...

R1 advances to 2B on a straight steal and is clearly safe but the SS announces "foul ball" (thinking it was indeed a foul ball). R1 without looking to the base umpire for confirmation begins retreating back to 1B. Catcher throws to 2B who tags the runner. Base umpire calls R1 out.

Additional thoughts.....

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maven    3,885
36 minutes ago, Guest Andy the ump said:

Here the situation that led to my initial question...

R1 advances to 2B on a straight steal and is clearly safe but the SS announces "foul ball" (thinking it was indeed a foul ball). R1 without looking to the base umpire for confirmation begins retreating back to 1B. Catcher throws to 2B who tags the runner. Base umpire calls R1 out.

Additional thoughts.....

Well, that's a completely different play, and not one that involves any kind of tag, fake or otherwise.

I think I'd treat this differently depending on a couple variables.

At lower levels, or if I were 100% certain that F6 sincerely thought the ball was foul, I might kill it and tell F6 not to do that.

In HS ball, this is likely verbal OBS (sincere F6 or not), and we'd award R1 3B.

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