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Guest Mike

Wind-up Pick off

Question

R1 Pitcher engages rubber in wind up position.  Pitcher then steps directly to first and throws to first without 1st disengaging from the rubber.  Is this a balk?

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12 minutes ago, Guest Mike said:

R1 Pitcher engages rubber in wind up position.  Pitcher then steps directly to first and throws to first without 1st disengaging from the rubber.  Is this a balk?

In FED(6-1-2) it is. not in OBR (5.07a-1) or NCAA(9-1a-1b).

6-1-2: a pitcher may not attempt a pickoff from the wind up position. PENALTY-balk 

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5 minutes ago, isired said:

He still has to move his left foot back or completely/perfectly side-step - if he makes what would be the natural motion to throw directly, I would think his left foot (RHP) might move forward, even slightly, before moving towards first.

That in and of itself does not make it a balk. The step just has to be direct and more towards first than home.

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That in and of itself does not make it a balk. The step just has to be direct and more towards first than home.
So it seems that it's a completely valid move in all but Fed then, huh?

I think Fed gets this one right. So many of the more arbitrary balk rules are in place to stop the pitcher from intentionally deceiving the runner, which would clearly be the case here. But shame on the runner, I guess - plenty of time to take second if he starts the windup.

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Here's a Q - if a RHP starts his wind up by stepping back and towards first with his left foot, can he then rotate his torso, point his toe to first and throw to first?

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2 minutes ago, isired said:

Here's a Q - if a RHP starts his wind up by stepping back and towards first with his left foot, can he then rotate his torso, point his toe to first and throw to first?

No, because then he'd be simulating the start of a pitch.

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3 minutes ago, isired said:

Here's a Q - if a RHP starts his wind up by stepping back and towards first with his left foot, can he then rotate his torso, point his toe to first and throw to first?

no ...his left foot starts his windup, that'd be a start/stop balk ...that's illegal.... all codes

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31 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

no ...his left foot starts his windup, that'd be a start/stop balk ...that's illegal.... all codes

Its not the movement of the foot that would make it a balk, it that he moved it back, or in a manner associated with his natural pitching motion, prior to pick off attempt . To pick off from the windup he has to step with his Non-pivot foot (RHP=left foot) directly to the bag gaining ground towards the base. Hypothetically I guess you could step back and still pickoff to second... no sure if the interps would support that or not, but by "black letter" you could. 

Im getting  my info from the 2016 version  the BRD (baseball rules differences) book by Carl Childress. Which by the way, I would recommended for everyone especially if you call multiple levels. It has all the rules, case plays and interps for each rule set wrote beside each other and by topic/situation. As well as some notes from the editor of the book. really good stuff. Takes a lot of the work out of looking stuff up. 

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You need to look at the totality of the pitcher's movements, not just the foot.

 

and, we're (almost) all familiar with the BRD.  Just be careful to distinguish between the facts of the rules / case plays and the (former) author's opinions.

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40 minutes ago, isired said:

So it seems that it's a completely valid move in all but Fed then, huh?

I think Fed gets this one right. So many of the more arbitrary balk rules are in place to stop the pitcher from intentionally deceiving the runner, which would clearly be the case here. But shame on the runner, I guess - plenty of time to take second if he starts the windup.

No. Not intentionally deceive the runner but Illegally deceive the runner.

 

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34 minutes ago, noumpere said:

You need to look at the totality of the pitcher's movements, not just the foot.

That's what I was trying to get at. 

Also I went back and read the rule out of NCAA and its basically the same. It doesn't say Non-pivot, but you get that from context because it later says that stepping off with pivot foot is disengage, which makes you a fielder. I know you know all this, just explain. 

Who has see this?? What level?? being calling multiple years of college ball and have see it yet..

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2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Most pitchers think you can't pick from the windup, so they don't do it.

I feel like this would be a pretty easy way to catch someone off guard an get them. Just MO though. 

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Although the rule doesn't explicitly address balks and pick-off moves, FED 6-1-2 states: With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first.

From the wind-up, there is no other option. He has to disengage before doing anything but pitch.

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OP here.  12U Rec Ball coach and former umpire.  (20 yrs ago).  I love teaching and on occasion I have rules discussions with the kids.  In this case, we were working on pickoff moves to first and I told them that you can technically pick to 1st from the windup position.  I went on to say that there is a good chance that you'll get balked for it too.  By discussing this with my players, it generated some conversations with parents and other coaches that subsequently made it to the umpires at our fields.  They apparently stated that they would balk it so I wanted to reverify that I was correct in what I was teaching.  While technically allowed, I don't think that I would ever advocate the use of this play.  IMO, it's may give the pitcher an unfair advantage.  

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2 hours ago, Guest Mike said:

OP here.  12U Rec Ball coach and former umpire.  (20 yrs ago).  I love teaching and on occasion I have rules discussions with the kids.  In this case, we were working on pickoff moves to first and I told them that you can technically pick to 1st from the windup position.  I went on to say that there is a good chance that you'll get balked for it too.  By discussing this with my players, it generated some conversations with parents and other coaches that subsequently made it to the umpires at our fields.  They apparently stated that they would balk it so I wanted to reverify that I was correct in what I was teaching.  While technically allowed, I don't think that I would ever advocate the use of this play.  IMO, it's may give the pitcher an unfair advantage.  

You're at a delicate crossroads, torn between what's legal and what you oppose as a practice. They way I look at it is if it's legal, it's okay. If the advantage it gives the pitcher is unfair, the rules committee should change it. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, if you want to try it, knock yourself out.

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14 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

You're at a delicate crossroads, torn between what's legal and what you oppose as a practice. They way I look at it is if it's legal, it's okay. If the advantage it gives the pitcher is unfair, the rules committee should change it. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, if you want to try it, knock yourself out.

The general guidance I gave the players I coached was simply because something is technically allowed does not mean it will be perceived as such.  Anything that is close can, in real time, appear to be illegal.  So, when you dance close to the edge, you risk being called for it, even if you didn't actually go past the line.  This is true for anything from pickoffs to drag bunts which may or may not look like you're still in the box.   

So, if you're willing to accept that you will sometimes get called for an infraction you didn't make, keep doing so, but don't complain when it doesn't go your way....you'll get away with it from time to time too.

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4 hours ago, White47 said:

Its not the movement of the foot that would make it a balk, it that he moved it back, or in a manner associated with his natural pitching motion, prior to pick off attempt . To pick off from the windup he has to step with his Non-pivot foot (RHP=left foot) directly to the bag gaining ground towards the base. Hypothetically I guess you could step back and still pickoff to second... no sure if the interps would support that or not, but by "black letter" you could. 

Im getting  my info from the 2016 version  the BRD (baseball rules differences) book by Carl Childress. Which by the way, I would recommended for everyone especially if you call multiple levels. It has all the rules, case plays and interps for each rule set wrote beside each other and by topic/situation. As well as some notes from the editor of the book. really good stuff. Takes a lot of the work out of looking stuff up. 

From the MLBUM: "Bases loaded, pitcher in windup position. Before making any motion associated with his delivery of the pitch to the batter, the pitcher turns, steps, and throws to second (or to first or to third) in one continuous motion in an attempt to pick off the runner. Ruling: Legal move."

Bold is mine not MLBUM.

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3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The general guidance I gave the players I coached was simply because something is technically allowed does not mean it will be perceived as such.  Anything that is close can, in real time, appear to be illegal.  So, when you dance close to the edge, you risk being called for it, even if you didn't actually go past the line.  This is true for anything from pickoffs to drag bunts which may or may not look like you're still in the box.   

So, if you're willing to accept that you will sometimes get called for an infraction you didn't make, keep doing so, but don't complain when it doesn't go your way....you'll get away with it from time to time too.

Indeed. But it's the same as any other judgement call, which is why I wouldn't treat it differently or put special emphasis on it.

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Indeed. But it's the same as any other judgement call, which is why I wouldn't treat it differently or put special emphasis on it.

But this isn't a judgment call for most umpires, it would be wrong rule interpretation.

I know many a umpire that do not know you can step directly to a base in the windup position (outside of FED). I would call this protestable in any league that doesn't play FED.

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From a coaching perspective it's not worth spending the practice time on. A decent team will just wait for the pitcher to start his wind-up and take the next base. If your pitcher assumes the wind-up position just to pick he won't foul a well coached team at any level.

 

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50 minutes ago, KenBAZ said:

From a coaching perspective it's not worth spending the practice time on. A decent time will just wait for the pitcher to start his wind-up and take the next base. If your pitcher assumes the wind-up position just to pick he won't foul well coached time at any level.

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I've seen easy picks at 1B w/RHP and 3B w/LHP ignored by those pitchers in windup runner configurations in OBR leagues where no one knows the pitcher can pick from the windup.

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15 hours ago, isired said:

Here's a Q - if a RHP starts his wind up by stepping back and towards first with his left foot, can he then rotate his torso, point his toe to first and throw to first?

You don't need to point your toe. You just need to step toward the base.

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