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JonnyCat

Strange Play

27 posts in this topic

Just got back from my HS association meeting tonight and I wanted to share and discuss a situation that happened to a couple of our umpires at a game last week. I've never heard of it before, but apparently it's a designed play that a school in our area has run before. Made for some good discussion in our meeting. Just wanted to get some thoughts. After some discussion, I'll explain what the PU did, what some of our members said to do, and what our area HS governing body ruled.

Here's the situation. HS varsity, R1 and R3, outs don't matter. F1 is ready to pitch, when R1 takes off for right field, and just stands next to the right fielder. F1 legally steps off rubber and just stands their with the ball looking a little dumbfounded. Obviously, offensive team wants defense to play on the R1, so that R3 will score. F1 never made a play on R1.

What do you do now? Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

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Hope that F1 throws a third strike, F2 fakes the throw to 2B, R3 runs into the tag. F2 then throws to F4 who tags out R1. 2 outs. 

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6 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

google 'skunk in the outfield'

No need for google 

 

 

 

 

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I would think you could call abandonment. standing in the outfield kinda seems like giving up your right to run the bases.  Maybe not though. 

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1 hour ago, White47 said:

I would think you could call abandonment.

You would need to think again.

I think the specific play is in the FED case book, or in one of the annual interps, and the ruling is the same in all codes.

 

Edit:  Found this interp:

SITUATION 20: With R1 on third base, R2 takes a lead off of first base and positions himself at the grass behind first base down the right field line. F1 throws to F3 in an attempt to pick off B2. R2 runs down the right field foul line toward the outfield fence. RULING: While R2’s position is legal, he is declared out when he ran toward the outfield fence when a play was attempted. In running down the foul line, he was out of the baseline he had between his position at the time of the pick off and second base.(8-4-2a)

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I would think you could call abandonment. standing in the outfield kinda seems like giving up your right to run the bases.  Maybe not though. 

He hasn't forfeited his right to run the bases.. he is in fact, still running them by doing this.

Abandonment needs to be a last resort call in order to fill a void that allows us to continue a game.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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11 minutes ago, noumpere said:

You would need to think again.

I think the specific play is in the FED case book, or in one of the annual interps, and the ruling is the same in all codes.

Not arguing, but what do the interps say to do? your usual pretty knowledgeable on this stuff. 

Do you really just allow the runner to stand 100ft in the outfield and wait? the play sees pretty bush league to start with IMO. 

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8 minutes ago, White47 said:

Not arguing, but what do the interps say to do? your usual pretty knowledgeable on this stuff. 

Do you really just allow the runner to stand 100ft in the outfield and wait? the play sees pretty bush league to start with IMO. 

Yep. It may be bush, but bush ain't illegal on its own.

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21 minutes ago, White47 said:

Not arguing, but what do the interps say to do? your usual pretty knowledgeable on this stuff. 

Do you really just allow the runner to stand 100ft in the outfield and wait? the play sees pretty bush league to start with IMO. 

What do you do when the runner takes a 20 foot lead?  Same thing in the OP.

Sometimes, you just need to umpire.

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Just now, noumpere said:

What do you do when the runner takes a 20 foot lead?  Same thing in the OP.

Sometimes, you just need to umpire.

True, but I'm Glad stuff like this hasn't made its way into my area. I've honestly never heard of the "skunk in the outfield" play in 15 years of calling ball. I guess I'll know what to do when it happens now. 

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8 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

You wait 20 seconds for F1 to get back to pitching position.   

This is more what I was thinking. In the situation described in our meeting, it seemed that F1 just was standing there off the rubber and made no play on R1. At what point do you get the game moving? Can you call F1 for delay in this situation?

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1 minute ago, JonnyCat said:

This is more what I was thinking. In the situation described in our meeting, it seemed that F1 just was standing there off the rubber and made no play on R1. At what point do you get the game moving? Can you call F1 for delay in this situation?

Well he's got to do SOMETHING, so I would certainly be moving him along.

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3 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

This is more what I was thinking. In the situation described in our meeting, it seemed that F1 just was standing there off the rubber and made no play on R1. At what point do you get the game moving? Can you call F1 for delay in this situation?

 I think that's exactly what Brian is saying.  "F1, lets play ball".... ( wait 5-10 seconds) "ball 1"...

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50 minutes ago, White47 said:

True, but I'm Glad stuff like this hasn't made its way into my area. I've honestly never heard of the "skunk in the outfield" play in 15 years of calling ball. I guess I'll know what to do when it happens now. 

Never heard of it either in 16 years of umpiring. I'm sure I've read some of the threads here about that play, but I guess I wasn't paying attention! ^_^

In our meeting the PU admtted he wasn't sure what to do and when the stalemate continued, he called time and re-set everybody. Some at the meeting argued for abandonment, and our local HS governing body ruled this a legal play. We did not discuss what to do if F1 doesn't pitch and there is a stalemate. I'm most curious on what to do in that situation.

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9 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

Never heard of it either in 16 years of umpiring. I'm sure I've read some of the threads here about that play, but I guess I wasn't paying attention! ^_^

In our meeting the PU admtted he wasn't sure what to do and when the stalemate continued, he called time and re-set everybody. Some at the meeting argued for abandonment, and our local HS governing body ruled this a legal play. We did not discuss what to do if F1 doesn't pitch and there is a stalemate. I'm most curious on what to do in that situation.

Personally I'd probably just reset it like they did, especially never have seeing it or hearing of it before today. Probably not the right ruling though, I guess by rule your give F1 20's then call a ball. 

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I don't recall who has said it here, however, "strange does not make it illegal" 

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1 hour ago, White47 said:

Personally I'd probably just reset it like they did, especially never have seeing it or hearing of it before today. Probably not the right ruling though, I guess by rule your give F1 20's then call a ball. 

I think this is where you can send things off the rails with this.   What is it that is supposed to be "reset"?   R1 hasn't done anything illegal by going into right field, so why would an umpire be inclined to call 'Time' ?  If by "reset" he's going to tell him to return to the first base area, then that is 100% wrong on the umpire's part.   I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the manager who comes out to (rightfully) ask you "who in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks do you think you are in trying to run my ball club?"   

Get the pitcher's attention, tell him to pitch or make a play.   Give him his 20 seconds and if you're still waiting (and 20 seconds is an eternity, IMO) then you announce "BALL".   Too bad for the defensive team if it happens to be ball four.

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11 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

I think this is where you can send things off the rails with this.   What is it that is supposed to be "reset"?   R1 hasn't done anything illegal by going into right field, so why would an umpire be inclined to call 'Time' ?  If by "reset" he's going to tell him to return to the first base area, then that is 100% wrong on the umpire's part.   I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the manager who comes out to (rightfully) ask you "who in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks do you think you are in trying to run my ball club?"   

Get the pitcher's attention, tell him to pitch or make a play.   Give him his 20 seconds and if you're still waiting (and 20 seconds is an eternity, IMO) then you announce "BALL".   Too bad for the defensive team if it happens to be ball four.

I meant in their situation, not knowing of the play. honestly until today I'd would have call abandonment, because I wouldn't have had a clue what to do, never heard of it until today. Good thing I logged on. 

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2 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

I think this is where you can send things off the rails with this.   What is it that is supposed to be "reset"?   R1 hasn't done anything illegal by going into right field, so why would an umpire be inclined to call 'Time' ?  If by "reset" he's going to tell him to return to the first base area, then that is 100% wrong on the umpire's part.   I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the manager who comes out to (rightfully) ask you "who in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks do you think you are in trying to run my ball club?"   

Get the pitcher's attention, tell him to pitch or make a play.   Give him his 20 seconds and if you're still waiting (and 20 seconds is an eternity, IMO) then you announce "BALL".   Too bad for the defensive team if it happens to be ball four.

is the 20 second rule a thing in FED even with runners on base? Thought in OBR at least there had to be no runners on 

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1 minute ago, Gfoley4 said:

is the 20 second rule a thing in FED even with runners on base? Thought in OBR at least there had to be no runners on 

Article 6-2-2 (c) in FED.   

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2 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the manager who comes out to (rightfully) ask you "who in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks do you think you are in trying to run my ball club?"   

Well now we'll have another issue that should take everybody's mind off the skunk play.

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11 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

I think this is where you can send things off the rails with this.   What is it that is supposed to be "reset"?   R1 hasn't done anything illegal by going into right field, so why would an umpire be inclined to call 'Time' ?  If by "reset" he's going to tell him to return to the first base area, then that is 100% wrong on the umpire's part.   I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the manager who comes out to (rightfully) ask you "who in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks do you think you are in trying to run my ball club?"   

You betcha. This is a case of the team being smarter than the umpire and having a firmer grasp on the rules. We never want to be in this position because if you "reset" this play, you're wrong. The coach is going to argue, and I'd even imagine an EJ isn't far behind because once he realizes the umpire has no idea what he's seeing, he'll be incensed and hit the roof.

Now what do we have? Trouble on top of trouble and the association has a lot of egg on its face. I'm on my association's Board and have seen the fallout from an umpire mis-applying or mis-interpreting rules, then ejecting a coach for arguing about it. It never goes well.

I'm very glad for the sake of the guys who didn't know about this play until now that they've had the benefit of this thread. Take this information back to your association. Share it with your partners when you pre-game. Doing so may very well be the best preventive umpiring you can employ.

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