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Guest Craig

2 questions same game

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Guest Craig   
Guest Craig

12u league.

1st question. Last at bat the player rolls his ankle and hobbled off the field but continues to play. Next at bat, he singles and the coach requests the last out player as a courtesy runner and expects this rule to be in place for the hobbled player for the rest of the game. Ruling?

2nd question.  Runner on first and a 2-2 count on the batter. Next pitch is ball 3, but batter mistakenly thinks it is ball 4 and runs to 1st base. The runner on first goes to second. When the batter is told and realizes he was not walked he returns to the batters box. However, the runner at second remains at second. No dead ball or time out was called, and the coach argues that he does not have to return to first because of this. Does the runner return to first? Ruling?

 

Thanks I'm advance.

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noumpere    2,412

1) Need more information about the specific rules code (LL, Pony, BR, USSSA FED, etc.) being used to answer. Might even depend on the local rules.

2) It's just a stolen base and the runner remains at second.  If the defense would have tagged the runner while he was off the base, the runner would be out.

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Guest Craig   
Guest Craig

There really is no league rule addressing ruling 1. I was told it falls to basic little league rules.

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White47    52

1) I don't keep up with LL rules, but at other levels courtesy runner rules are normal set by league or state association. With that being said, I would allow this with no problem in league ball Unless other coach had a problem with it. If he did Then I do my best to talk him into it especially if they are batting everyone. Really it depends on League rules though. 

2)The runner need not return. The defense and there coach should have know and been aware of the situation and tag the runner out or run him back to first. Good preventive officiating, at this level, IMHO would allow the umpire to call time once he saw batter walking to first and before any of this transpired and got everyone where they needed to be.  But sometimes it happens so fast you don't really know whats going on, and in that case he stays. 

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Rich Ives    956
7 minutes ago, Guest Craig said:

There really is no league rule addressing ruling 1. I was told it falls to basic little league rules.

In the case:  There are no courtesy runners in Little League.  You could use a Special Pinch Runner for him but only once.  After that it's a normal sub and sub rules apply.  Caveat: If you are using continuous batting then there are no Special Pinch Runners.  

Where is the kid on defense?

Just suit him down and let him heal.  I's only 12U rec baseball.

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Larry in TN    123

Also, in Little League, an injured player can exit a continuous batting order without penalty.  His position is skipped each time it comes around.  If, later in the game, he has recovered, he can re-enter in his original position.

This removes any incentive for a coach to hide an injury to keep a player in the game and possible make the injury worse.

 

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ElkOil    694
1 hour ago, Guest Craig said:

2nd question.  Runner on first and a 2-2 count on the batter. Next pitch is ball 3, but batter mistakenly thinks it is ball 4 and runs to 1st base. The runner on first goes to second. When the batter is told and realizes he was not walked he returns to the batters box. However, the runner at second remains at second. No dead ball or time out was called, and the coach argues that he does not have to return to first because of this. Does the runner return to first? Ruling?

It's incumbent on players and coaches to know the situation, which is why there's no liability to the umpire in this to correct anything. It's just a stolen base, even though it was perpetuated by the batter. It's a good coaching opportunity to keep everyone's head in the game and know what's going on. And if someone isn't sure of the count, ask the umpire.

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beerguy55    180
1 hour ago, ElkOil said:

It's incumbent on players and coaches to know the situation, which is why there's no liability to the umpire in this to correct anything. It's just a stolen base, even though it was perpetuated by the batter. It's a good coaching opportunity to keep everyone's head in the game and know what's going on. And if someone isn't sure of the count, ask the umpire.

I wish all umpires and coaches understood this.  I had a situation once where opposing pitcher had given up two singles and then walked the bases loaded, and then went 2-0 on next batter.  Coach calls time to talk to pitcher...after that, the pitcher threw two more balls, batter runs to first and all runners advance.  Nobody bats an eye - not their players, coaches or parents - everyone knew it was ball four...and then the home plate umpire suddenly announces that it's only 2-0.   I tell him it was 2-0 before the coach went to talk to the pitcher...you must have reset your counter by mistake.  He then goes and talks to the base ump who was obviously asleep, as he declares the count is 2-0.  Then, he sends all the runners back to their bases, because it wasn't fair to the other team!!!   Nothing like compounding a mistake with another mistake.   "Really Blue, every player and coach on both teams somehow wrongly thought there were two more balls thrown than you did?!"

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ofhs93    46
17 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I wish all umpires and coaches understood this.  I had a situation once where opposing pitcher had given up two singles and then walked the bases loaded, and then went 2-0 on next batter.  Coach calls time to talk to pitcher...after that, the pitcher threw two more balls, batter runs to first and all runners advance.  Nobody bats an eye - not their players, coaches or parents - everyone knew it was ball four...and then the home plate umpire suddenly announces that it's only 2-0.   I tell him it was 2-0 before the coach went to talk to the pitcher...you must have reset your counter by mistake.  He then goes and talks to the base ump who was obviously asleep, as he declares the count is 2-0.  Then, he sends all the runners back to their bases, because it wasn't fair to the other team!!!   Nothing like compounding a mistake with another mistake.   "Really Blue, every player and coach on both teams somehow wrongly thought there were two more balls thrown than you did?!"

 

Would this not be a situation where the umpire should go to the home team's score-book to confirm the count if there is any question?

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noumpere    2,412
47 minutes ago, ofhs93 said:

 

Would this not be a situation where the umpire should go to the home team's score-book to confirm the count if there is any question?

By rule, no.  The umpire is responsible for the count.  The score-book is not.  You can go to the score-book for the outs.

As a game management technique -- well, if both sides agree, then I'll probably take what they have.

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Guest NJ Coach   
Guest NJ Coach

Re: #1  I know this will sound harsh,but I think it's wrong to allow a kid to always get a pinch runner but stay in the order.   Either the kid is too injured to play, or he isn't,   And wouldn't it be especially convenient if said hitter was the one of the slowest kids on the team.   Too much opportunity and incentive to cheat. A slippery slope.

In my league a few years ago a very good hitter had his foot in a cast and couldn't run. His dad (the coach) wanted him to be allowed to only hit, and neither run the bases or satisfy the league minimum of four innings in the field.   Fortunately,the league said no.

 

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MadMax    1,215

1) There may be more specific rulesets and adherences to them, but 12U league baseball usually indicates OBR with pitch count restrictions, continuous batting order and free defensive position exchanges. Some allow for courtesy runners, some don't. With this said, even in tournament ball, most of these rules are for the purposes of Participation over Penalty. So, if a player in a continuous batting order is injured such that he cannot continue to play on defense, just simply exchange him off the bench with someone else. If he cannot report to his at bat, then we declare an Injury Withdrawal, his name is struck from the lineup, and he no longer participates in this game in any capacity (if during a tournament, then it's up to the TD regarding eligibility for later games). There is no penalty provided this action leaves the team with no less than 9. If less than 9 (most tournaments I've worked allow for 8, but no less than that), then an out is recorded when that position comes up to bat in the lineup.

If we're running a continuous batting order (with or without CR's for catcher and/or pitcher), and an injury occurs during the at-bat, such that the player cannot touch 1B unaided, we'll allow a One-Time Special Courtesy Runner. If the DT squawks about it, they can even pick the Runner for all we care. The majority of the time, there is no argument because everyone understands that we're here for fun and participation, not to incur injury and penalty. This is especially poignant when its a HBP headshot. There's no "walk that one off", or "let's get you down to first base to see how you feel". I am not going to be the umpire who has a kid pass out on the bases all because I couldn't mitigate a situation like this, and I had to be a hardass enforcer of "No substitutions! No courtesy runners!" in amateur baseball. People – players, coaches, parents, fans and umpires – have to start understanding the context of these situations. So, if the kid takes a whallop in the head, we are going to do a Special One-Time Courtesy Runner, no questions asked. If a medical consult / coach / parent (gosh I hope so) examines him, on the bench, and clears him to play further, then he can rejoin the game. If its prudent or necessary to perform an Injury Withdrawal, then we do so.

As to the situation the OP presented, I would have been proactive in that, if he had rolled his ankle at the previous at-bat, but continued to participate, then he is able-bodied to continue to participate under the standard Rules – which means, no courtesy runner just for him should he get on base. You can't have both, Coach – either he participates, or he's withdrawn as an Injury Withdrawal. Either/Or.

2) Oh man, I love these. Because a Walk is a live-ball event, R1 (now standing on R2) does not or should not be sent back to 1B; however, he's under no protection, either, so with the ball still live, if he's tagged off the base, he's Out. Tough cookies, but the DT should have known what the count was and (re)acted accordingly.

These sort of situations are where PUs who don't call "Ball"s, or audibly declare "Ball four" get themselves in a bind. There's no need to audibly call every pitch that is a ball a "Ball!", but surely, on Ball Four, have some way of differentiating.

Reading this OP and the various answers, I've been struck with a point-to-ponder to run by @maven, @noumpere, and the rest of the "Rule'rs" (I say that friendly and kindly)... 

The ball remains Live the entire time. R1 trots over to 2B because his Batter mistakenly believes it to be Ball Four (it's only ball Three) and is trotting up 1BL to 1B. R1 arrives and touches 2B. Everyone makes a big ta-doo about how it's only Ball Three, and how Batter is a big doofus and goes back to pick up his bat and get back in the box. Either at the coach's (mistaken) prompting, or filled with a sense of "doing the right thing" or whatever, R1 leaves 2B and comes back to stand on 1B, with the DT watching all these proceedings, with the ball still Live, in a stupor. R1 re-arrives and stands on 1B. What do we have?

I ask, because isn't there the "anti-Ricky Henderson Rule", wherein a Runner cannot go back to a base for the purposes of trying to re-steal an advance base? R1 did obtain 2B – everyone watched it happen – during a Live Ball and now he's standing on 1B again?

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maven    3,880
9 hours ago, MadMax said:

I ask, because isn't there the "anti-Ricky Henderson Rule", wherein a Runner cannot go back to a base for the purposes of trying to re-steal an advance base? R1 did obtain 2B – everyone watched it happen – during a Live Ball and now he's standing on 1B again?

OBR has a provision that disallows returning to a previous base after F1 takes the rubber. Other than that, no, live ball, play on.

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noumpere    2,412
1 hour ago, maven said:

OBR has a provision that disallows returning to a previous base after F1 takes the rubber. Other than that, no, live ball, play on.

Yep, it's kind of like the "except for the purposes of making a play" phrase -- everyone gets the main part of the statement, but not the conditional.

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Larry in TN    123

Who has the link to the MLB play where two players are tagged on 2B and the one who wasn't out thought he was and ended up on 1B after starting toward the dugout?

 

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MadMax    1,215
50 minutes ago, Larry in TN said:

Who has the link to the MLB play where two players are tagged on 2B and the one who wasn't out thought he was and ended up on 1B after starting toward the dugout?

Larry, search for "Jean Segura steals 1B"... put "Ryan Braun" in there too. Perhaps "crazy" as well.

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