Run Scoring Question

[Guest Ken]

Had unique situation occur in a 12U girls softball game.  Umpire ruled that the run did NOT count, which I believe is correct.

 

Situation and sequence of events:

1 out

runners on 2B and 3B

batter hits ground ball to shortstop

shortstop tags runner running from 2B to 3B for second out

runner from third reaches home plate

shortstop throws to first getting the batter/runner for third out on a force

 

The umpire ruled that run does not count.  I believe that is correct based on the language I could find, which was essentially that a run does not score when the batter/runner makes the third out on a force play at first base.

 

I believe that had the sequence of events been slightly different then the run may have have counted, though I am not sure about this either.  For example, had the ball been hit to first base and the firstbaseman stepped on first base for the second out and then thrown to the third baseman who tagged the runner from 2B to 3B for the third out, then the run WOULD have counted since the batter/runner being forced out at first was only the second out of the inning.

 

The key is that the batter/runner made the third out on a force at first base.   Maybe?

 

Can you confirm and provide examples or citations from the rule book or interpretations?

 

Thank you.

[udbrky]

Batter-runner is out before reaching first for third out, run doesn't score.

It's the same as a double play (look at the play today in Cubs-Cardinals with the INT call on runner at 2nd, run didn't score).

 

Second sitch, it's a timing play, so if runner scores before the runner going to third is tagged out for the third out, then it scores. If not, then it does not.

[Gfoley4]

"(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases"

[Rich Ives]

And the usual technical nit pick.  The reason for having both  exception 1 and exception 2  is because the out at first is not a force.  only a runner who had to vacate his base because the batter became a runner can be forced. 

[WilsonFlyer]

9 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

And the usual technical nit pick.  The reason for having both  exception 1 and exception 2  is because the out at first is not a force.  only a runner who had to vacate his base because the batter became a runner can be forced. 

 

OK. I can buy into that, but then what do you call the play at 1B?

[maven]

21 minutes ago, WilsonFlyer said:

 

OK. I can buy into that, but then what do you call the play at 1B?

The BR making the third out before touching 1B.

[WilsonFlyer]

8 minutes ago, maven said:

The BR making the third out before touching 1B.

I was talking about whether the BR was forced to 1B, which in my belief he is. I have always been told and taught that once the hit is made, the BR is "forced" to 1B. Sure he can run to the dugout if he wants to, but he's going to be put out at 1B by a throw on the force (abandonment aside in this example).

I'm trying to figure out if the BR is not out out by a force at 1B, then what is it, because it certainly isn't an appeal play like a tag-up. This came up in Rich's post.

[Rich Ives]

18 minutes ago, WilsonFlyer said:

I was talking about whether the BR was forced to 1B, which in my belief he is. I have always been told and taught that once the hit is made, the BR is "forced" to 1B. Sure he can run to the dugout if he wants to, but he's going to be put out at 1B by a throw on the force (abandonment aside in this example).

I'm trying to figure out if the BR is not out out by a force at 1B, then what is it, because it certainly isn't an appeal play like a tag-up. This came up in Rich's post.

Because a force play is defined in the rules and the batter isn't forced as defined in the rules. That's why the separate exceptions.

See the definitions.

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right
to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

As to why he is out at first if it isn't a force, that is in the rules also.

5.09 Making an Out
(a) Retiring the Batter A batter is out when:

(10) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first
base is tagged before he touches first base;

[LRZ]

There is no special term of art. It is the batter being retired by the defense tagging him or first base before the batter touches the base. OBR5.09(10).

A force play, by definition, involves a runner, distinguished from a batter or batter-runner, losing his right to occupy a base by the batter becoming a runner. Obviously, a batter or batter-runner does not yet occupy or have a right to occupy a base. So a batter-runner being thrown out at first is not a force play, but simply a retired batter.

Rich just got here before me!

[beerguy55]

Semantics.  

The batter has no choice but to go to first base.  He can't occupy the batter's box.   He is "forced" linguistically, if not by letter of the rule.

 

[ALStripes17]

Semantics.  
The batter has no choice but to go to first base.  He can't occupy the batter's box.   He is "forced" linguistically, if not by letter of the rule.
 

Who's forcing him?

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[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

Who's forcing him?

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The on deck batter?  The flow of time?  The angry fans???

Taken to extreme absurdity, if the lead off hitter of a game hit a ground ball to F1, and F1 just stayed on the mound with the ball, and the batter just stayed in the batter's box, they would not be able to just stand around and wait for the next batter to come to the plate.   That play can't be completed, and the game can't continue, until the batter/runner reaches first safely or is put out.   And by rule, the defense can choose to allow a batter to reach base.

Don't get me wrong, I understand by letter of the rule why it's not a force play.  But the reality is, the batter doesn't really have much choice in the matter.  He can't stay at home plate.

[ALStripes17]

The on deck batter?  The flow of time?  The angry fans???
Taken to extreme absurdity, if the lead off hitter of a game hit a ground ball to F1, and F1 just stayed on the mound with the ball, and the batter just stayed in the batter's box, they would not be able to just stand around and wait for the next batter to come to the plate.   That play can't be completed, and the game can't continue, until the batter/runner reaches first safely or is put out.   And by rule, the defense can choose to allow a batter to reach base.
Don't get me wrong, I understand by letter of the rule why it's not a force play.  But the reality is, the batter doesn't really have much choice in the matter.  He can't stay at home plate.

Sure he can! The same way an R1 could stay on 1B and play this inevitable game of 'unstoppable force meet unmovable mountain.' The fact is, no one is behind the batter to force him to 1B.

The batter-runner to 1B is practically the middle ground of a true force play at any other base and the retouch appeal throw from the outfield. Hence the reason for it being directly addressed in the rules.

Although it does make me feel better that you understand the true defn and whatnot. That truly wasn't ever in question as I've seen your posts on here for quite some time

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[beerguy55]

1 minute ago, ALStripes17 said:

Sure he can! The same way an R1 could stay on 1B and play this inevitable game of 'unstoppable force meet unmovable mountain.' The fact is, no one is behind the batter to force him to 1B.
 

I see this as a possible MLB work stoppage protest move - pitcher throws a meatball, batter bunts it into fair territory, and nobody moves...see how long the fans boo before they leave.  And how long does PU keep pointing to fair territory.

[Larry in TN]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Semantics.

Yet, since it is specifically defined in the rules, there really is no doubt that it is not a force out.

 

[beerguy55]

31 minutes ago, Larry in TN said:

Yet, since it is specifically defined in the rules, there really is no doubt that it is not a force out.

 

Which is why the second half of my post, which you decided to ignore, is important to complete the context of the statement.

Besides, I never suggested it was a "force out", which is defined in the rule book.  I was commenting on whether or not the batter was "forced" to go to first, which is defined in the dictionary.  Sometimes when people talk they are not speaking "baseball" they are speaking "English".  

[White47]

Honestly we are splitting  hairs here. I know the definition of a force out, but end the end it doesn't really matter as long as we get the call right, right? Allow young officials, or old officials for that matter, to think of it however they want, and however makes it easiest for them to understand.  Being a good official is more about knowing how to apply the rules during in game situations then knowing the "semantics", Thanks beerguy, and exact verbiage of the rules.

I Guarantee  almost no coach is going to call your bluff if you say the batter is forced. visualize it however you want, get the call right.