High School Benches Clearing Brawl

[StrikeDavis]

http://citizensvoice.com/sports/wvc-baseball-benches-clear-in-pittston-area-valley-west-game-1.2191896

Thoughts on this situation?

[Kevin_K]

When players leave their positions or their dugout to participate in a fight they should be ejected. If this is the end of the game because there are no eligible players to finish the game, so be it.

What justification can there be for ignoring the clearly worded rules that indicate:

ART. 1 . . . A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

p. leave their positions or bench area during a fight or physical confrontation;

PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game. Failure to comply shall result in game being forfeited. In (m), the ball is immediately dead, if on offense, the player is ejected and declared out, unless he has already scored. If the defense commits the malicious contact, the player is ejected; the umpire shall rule either safe or out on the play and award the runner(s) the appropriate base(s) he felt they would have obtained if the malicious contact had not occurred. In (p), a coach who attempts to prevent a fight or restore order is not in violation of the rule.

Suppose for a moment, there was another brawl and some one was seriously injured. Guess who is liable? 

[umpstu]

3 hours ago, White47 said:

By the book a bench clear fight where everyone leaves there position everyone should be tossed, but you can really do that bc you wouldn't have any players to finishing the game unless your going to double forfeit it, not sure there's any rules to back that up . This is where you have to use a little common sense ( and probably some game management before the incident).

The instigators and anyone that throws a punch must go and possible anyone that coming out in an aggressive manner, peace keepers, kids helping break the fight up, I'd let stay.

It's a tough situation though. I hope I'm never apart of something like this.

 

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In this situation I could care less about the game being forfeited.  A lot of people are going to be ejected.  That is the rule and even though I bend a few rules, this will be one I won't bend.

[dumbdumb]

You do what this umpire did and let the chips fall where they may.

If you work again, fine. If you don't work again fine.

Although you hope to never have this happen, the rule is clear.

Enforce the rule. If the powers that be want to write the rule differently, then by all means let them.

Just do your job and go home. Let bygones be bygones.

Let the higher ups handle things after the game is called. Let the State/NF whoever/whatever cower to their own rule if they want to. They put the rule there for a reason.

If that reason happens, the rule defines what to do. They were not punch drunk when writing the rule. The wording was designed and premeditated for the rule and its enforcement, upon that situation/rule actually happening.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/all-36-players-ejected-one-parent-arrested-in-high-school-brawl/

[LRZ]

Plausible scenarios: a player or coach rushes onto the field to play peacekeeper, but an opponent thinks he's coming to jump into the fray and coldcocks him, or a peacekeeper grabs someone from behind to pull him off, who turns around and slugs him.

And with more bodies milling about, the umpires will have greater difficulty sorting things out. The rule makes a great deal of sense. Stay on the bench.

[ElkOil]

4 hours ago, White47 said:

By the book a bench clear fight where everyone leaves there position everyone should be tossed, but you

1. can really do that bc

2. you wouldn't have any players to finishing the game unless your going to double forfeit it,

3. not sure there's any rules to back that up .

4. This is where you have to use a little common sense ( and probably some game management before the incident).

The instigators and anyone that throws a punch must go and

5. possible anyone that coming out in an aggressive manner, peace keepers,

6. kids helping break the fight up, I'd let stay.

1. Yes, yes, yes a thousand times yes. It is explicit in the rule book

2. That's a consequence of their own actions. Too bad.

3. 3-3-1p See the penalties.

4. No, just be the arbiter of the rules. That is why you're paid. If some good game management prevents this from happening, good on you. But if not, stand back and start writing down jersey numbers.

5. They're gone, too. By rule.

6. Absolutely not. The rule is explicit that anyone who leaves their position except coaches, are to be ejected.

[LMSANS]

45 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

You do what this umpire did and let the chips fall where they may.

If you work again, fine. If you don't work again fine.

Although you hope to never have this happen, the rule is clear.

Enforce the rule. If the powers that be want to write the rule differently, then by all means let them.

Just do your job and go home. Let bygones be bygones.

Let the higher ups handle things after the game is called. Let the State/NF whoever/whatever cower to their own rule if they want to. They put the rule there for a reason.

If that reason happens, the rule defines what to do. They were not punch drunk when writing the rule. The wording was designed and premeditated for the rule and its enforcement, upon that situation/rule actually happening.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/all-36-players-ejected-one-parent-arrested-in-high-school-brawl/

I am very familiar with this incident.  The umpire mentioned in the article is our interpreter and has held numerous position at the state level.

i had the next game for one of these teams...a conference tournament game and they had to play their JV players. They were knocked out of the tournament as a result.

 

[Stk004]

47 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

You do what this umpire did and let the chips fall where they may.

If you work again, fine. If you don't work again fine.

Although you hope to never have this happen, the rule is clear.

Enforce the rule. If the powers that be want to write the rule differently, then by all means let them.

Just do your job and go home. Let bygones be bygones.

Let the higher ups handle things after the game is called. Let the State/NF whoever/whatever cower to their own rule if they want to. They put the rule there for a reason.

If that reason happens, the rule defines what to do. They were not punch drunk when writing the rule. The wording was designed and premeditated for the rule and its enforcement, upon that situation/rule actually happening.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/all-36-players-ejected-one-parent-arrested-in-high-school-brawl/

This is a good example of how to handle a bench clearing brawl in high school. All the kids come off the bench/leave positions to participate? Ok, fine, everyone's gone. All the coaches came out to play peacemaker? Good for them, they don't get tossed. 

We have a rule, as many have pointed out, that explicitly demands an ejection for anyone who participates in a fight or leaves their dugout/positions. I don't care if it's 2 kids or 36, everyone who comes out to the fight gets to go home. 

I'd hate to have to justify why I let a game continue after a bench clearing brawl, especially if another brawl came of it. If I'm not supposed to be on that field anymore, there's no way I'm risking that. 

[jonathantullos]

8 hours ago, White47 said:

By the book a bench clear fight where everyone leaves there position everyone should be tossed, but would you really do that bc you wouldn't have any players to finishing the game unless your going to double forfeit it . This is where you have to use a little common sense ( and probably some game management before the incident).

The instigators and anyone that throws a punch must go and possible anyone that coming out in an aggressive manner, peace keepers, kids helping break the fight up, I'd let stay.

It's a tough situation though. I hope I'm never apart of something like this.

 

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You have got to be kidding.

There's no way on God's green earth that I would leave any of those players in the game. If you continue a game after emotions run so high that it causes a bench clearing brawl, you're asking for trouble. Someone will get hurt. And do you know who will ultimately be held responsible?

You. Because you didn't enforce the rules.

I have seen what happens when an official does a piss poor job of enforcing such rules and things get out of hand. A good friend of mine paid the price and ended up having to get rehab. 

They're all gone. Consequences be damned. If someone wants to blackball me for doing my job, I shouldn't be associated with them anyway.

[jonathantullos]

4 hours ago, White47 said:

Let me clean up what I meant In above post. Anyone that is aggressive in any manner is gone no problems with that. My thought is, what about the short stop who runs in and and get in front of F1 and keeps him from fighting, or the freshman that steps out of the dugout and is still 100 ft away. Or the 2nd baseman that grabs the SS and keeps him from kick the base runner. Should those players be tossed, and yes I know by rule they are, but really? I can be and probably am 100% wrong, and I'm ok with that to some degree.

Secondly I'm not sure how much of that I'm going to see anyway bc there is no way I'm just standing back and taking numbers. I'm going to do my best to put my body in between and try and keep kids from making poor decisions and getting hurt. And I know that not what I'm suppose to do, but I'm a teacher and administrator and often know these kids on a personal level. And I have to break up fights/ keep them from happening several times a week so I'm pretty good at it.

Handling student conflict in one of my main jobs.

Once again this is a situation I don't think anyone knows what they will do until there in it. You can't really pregame a fight. Hope I never experience it.

 

 

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First, let me say that if you're a teacher and you officiate a game in which the school where you teach is involved, that is a gross conflict of interest. My wife teaches and I asked to not be assigned to any games involving her school because I do not want there to even be the perception that I'm showing bias, not to mention it could potentially cause problems for her if I made a controversial call and someone decided to hold a grudge. But, hey, if you're willing to take that risk, go for it.

How are you to judge what kid is doing what? You stated that you weren't going to sit back and take numbers, yet you somehow expect that you can judge between a kid actively fighting and a kid just trying to break things up? Hogwash. Such should not even matter. The way I understand the rules, it does not matter what a kid's involvement in the fight is. They are there, they are involved, they are ejected. 

Those are the rules, period, full stop. If you don't like it, don't ump. It's as simple as that.

I also would not recommend getting in between any kids and trying to stop a fight. There's no way I would do that - that's the coach's job. You're also taking a whole lot of liability on yourself because all you have to do is put your hands on a kid and you have just committed felony battery. Let the coaches sort it out. That's their job, not yours.

[ElkOil]

5 hours ago, White47 said:

Let me clean up what I meant In above post. Anyone that is aggressive in any manner is gone no problems with that. My thought is, what about the short stop who runs in and and get in front of F1 and keeps him from fighting, or the freshman that steps out of the dugout and is still 100 ft away. Or the 2nd baseman that grabs the SS and keeps him from kick the base runner. Should those players be tossed, and yes I know by rule they are, but really? I can be and probably am 100% wrong, and I'm ok with that to some degree.

Secondly I'm not sure how much of that I'm going to see anyway bc there is no way I'm just standing back and taking numbers. I'm going to do my best to put my body in between and try and keep kids from making poor decisions and getting hurt. And I know that not what I'm suppose to do, but I'm a teacher and administrator and often know these kids on a personal level. And I have to break up fights/ keep them from happening several times a week so I'm pretty good at it.

Handling student conflict in one of my main jobs.

Once again this is a situation I don't think anyone knows what they will do until there in it. You can't really pregame a fight. Hope I never experience it.

 

 

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You're over-thinking this. Just enforce the rules and eject ANYONE who leaves their positions, excluding coaches who try to regain control.

When you're on the field as an umpire, that is ALL you are. You're not there as a teacher or an administrator. Leave those jobs elsewhere and do the ONLY job you're getting paid to do on the ball field. And if there's "no way" you're standing back and would rather put your body in harm's way, you're asking for a potential world of hurt. If you get injured, do you know who pays for it? Your state association probably does with their insurance policy. So now you're putting yourself in a position to cost them money by doing something you had no business doing.

And yes, many people know exactly what to do before they're in it. Stand back, observe, write down jersey numbers. After the dust clears, eject all who participated in the fight.

[jonathantullos]

As for the actual article, the umpiring crew is to blame for the game continuing to be heated. As I stated to @White47 if there is a bench clearing fight and you allow the game to continue, you're asking for trouble. Sounds like they got it in abundance. 

Every kid on that field should have been EJ'd. Sorry, not sorry.

[taa71458]

It's a pretty simple, straightforward rule. The gross misapplication of it by these umpires is disappointing.

[LRZ]

1 hour ago, White47 said:

This is the point I'm was trying to make. Big difference between participating and leaving you area or position.

The rule prohibits leaving a player, coach or bench personnel from leaving his position or bench area during a fight; it does not require participation in the melee. Fewer bodies mixing it up = easier to regain control and to sanction offenders.

[scrounge]

1 hour ago, White47 said:

This is the point I'm was trying to make. Big difference between participating and leaving you area or position.



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No. There isn't.

[ElkOil]

3 hours ago, White47 said:

This is the point I'm was trying to make. Big difference between participating and leaving you area or position.



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If you leave your position, you have -- by definition -- participated and by rule shall be ejected. We don't have the luxury of slicing this any finer. The rule is explicit.

[maineump]

22 hours ago, White47 said:

Handling student conflict in one of my main jobs.

Once again this is a situation I don't think anyone knows what they will do until there in it. You can't really pregame a fight. Hope I never experience it.

I handle conflict on a daily basis - domestics, drugs, assaults - I don't get into the middle of these, except  to protect myself.

In the case of the kids, I think it is really bad to go hands on for your own protection (on a baseball field), that is the coaching staff's job.

This does get pre-gamed - we do it in big rivalry games. like what are we doing if we see any flair up from the players, are the hitters being thrown at - we all know what our roles will be and who is watching who.

Resolving conflict in school is one thing, on a baseball field you are no longer being paid as a teacher. you are being paid as an umpire. I am a paramedic in my real life, I don't run to the injured players unless I see something LIFE THREATENING for an injury that I need to LEGALLY take care of.

It sounds bad, but like the rest say - stand back and write numbers - you are within the rules, not guessing what each kid is thinking and staying safe yourself.

[jonathantullos]

This is the point I'm was trying to make. Big difference between participating and leaving you area or position.



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[ofhs93]

I actually live in this area...don't know the guys who worked the game personally...but I know a guy who works in that association. It was a mess...and the guy writing for the paper tends to have a negative take on the local officials to begin with. As has been stated...by the book there should have been no one left to play the game because just about everyone should have been EJ'd. Let me also add this though.....MLB needs to step up and start to take some responsibility for this stuff as well....these kids emulate what they see when watching the pros....and when this happens on national TV almost no one gets the hook and there is really no penalty. MLB needs to step up and hit these guys where it hurts and get their crap in line...until that happens you will continue to see this at the lower levels because they think it's "cool".

[White47]

MLB needs to step up and start to take some responsibility for this stuff as well....these kids emulate what they see when watching the pros....and when this happens on national TV almost no one gets the hook and there is really no penalty. MLB needs to step up and hit these guys where it hurts and get their crap in line...until that happens you will continue to see this at the lower levels because they think it's "cool".

We can agree on this for sure.


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[BrianC14]

On 5/13/2017 at 7:48 AM, StrikeDavis said:

http://citizensvoice.com/sports/wvc-baseball-benches-clear-in-pittston-area-valley-west-game-1.2191896

Thoughts on this situation?

From the article:    "Valley West and Pittston Area took their baseball rivalry to another level Thursday afternoon when the teams engaged in a benches-clearing brawl in the third inning. Two Valley West players were ejected."  

Clearly there has been some history between these two schools.

A bench-clearing "brawl" and only two players from ONE TEAM were ejected?   LOL  Then the article informs us that only the WV catcher was ejected.

The article also says that some kid's MOM was escorted off the field...     OK, now things are getting a bit crazy.... 

The rest of the article tells us more about how the umpires lost control of the game, IMHO.   Players leaving their positions?   Players racing out of the dugout to join in?  No ejections?  No warnings?  And one coach says he went in to pull his players out and break things up and he was being punched from behind ??  WTH?    No ejections?    

Later in the game, we have a HBP, and then a 'message pitch' sent by the opposing team, and still no warnings?  That gets followed by a HBP.   

Also from the article:   "When asked about players leaving the bench area and entering the field, Turco said if the umpires ejected everyone who left the benches, the game would have been over."

And to that I say, "So what?"  Actions are supposed to have consequences.  What other rules of NFHS baseball were ignored during this game?  Imagine you're part of the next crew that has these two teams.   "Gee, thanks guys."

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by BrianC14
additional information / clarity

[LMSANS]

2 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

From the article:    "Valley West and Pittston Area took their baseball rivalry to another level Thursday afternoon when the teams engaged in a benches-clearing brawl in the third inning. Two Valley West players were ejected."  

Clearly there has been some history between these two schools.

A bench-clearing "brawl" and only two players from ONE TEAM were ejected?   LOL  Then the article informs us that only the WV catcher was ejected.

The article also says that some kid's MOM was escorted off the field...     OK, now things are getting a bit crazy.... 

 

 

 

The incident I referenced also had an adult, a parent, that was arrested for hitting one of the players.

[ofhs93]

Update from today's paper...

 

http://thetimes-tribune.com/sports/piaa-applauds-schools-for-self-imposed-discipline-in-wake-of-brawl-1.2193331

 

 

[lawump]

My thoughts (without having actually seen the brawl)

(1)  In my state (SC), if there was a true "bench clearing brawl" (where all the players run to the fight from either the dugout or their position on the field)...the game is over.  Everyone (except peace making coaches) are ejected.  If you (the umpire) did not so eject and then terminate such a game, you will not be umpiring another high school game anytime soon.

(2) Both teams would be banned from the post-season.  (SC consistently does this every single time a brawl breaks out...no matter the sport.  This has happened in football several times over the last 20 years...including 3-4 years ago when arguably the best team in the state (they were nationally ranked in USA Today) was banned from the post-season for having a post-game brawl.)

 

[Mudisfun]

2 hours ago, lawump said:

My thoughts (without having actually seen the brawl)

(1)  In my state (SC), if there was a true "bench clearing brawl" (where all the players run to the fight from either the dugout or their position on the field)...the game is over.  Everyone (except peace making coaches) are ejected.  If you (the umpire) did not so eject and then terminate such a game, you will not be umpiring another high school game anytime soon.

(2) Both teams would be banned from the post-season.  (SC consistently does this every single time a brawl breaks out...no matter the sport.  This has happened in football several times over the last 20 years...including 3-4 years ago when arguably the best team in the state (they were nationally ranked in USA Today) was banned from the post-season for having a post-game brawl.)

 

Time to put on those big boy pants and do your job... I like how this is/would be handled... Thankfully I have yet to run into an issue with fighting on the field but I am sure that is just a matter of time.