NFHS Appeal Play #2

[Guest Roger in Ohio]

Last night during our Ohio High School Varsity baseball game, on a fly ball to the outfield the runner at third left early.  Our coach called time, approached the base umpire and appealed (dead ball appeal) that the player left early.  The base umpire called the runner safe because he was watching second.  The plate umpire said nothing.  After the game, the plate umpire told our coach that he say the player leave early but because the coach did not specifically ask him, he could not call the runner out.  Is this correct?  The coach very clearly appealed the play, he just did not verbally direct the appeal to the plate umpire.

 

[scrounge]

9 minutes ago, Guest Roger in Ohio said:

Last night during our Ohio High School Varsity baseball game, on a fly ball to the outfield the runner at third left early.  Our coach called time, approached the base umpire and appealed (dead ball appeal) that the player left early.  The base umpire called the runner safe because he was watching second.  The plate umpire said nothing.  After the game, the plate umpire told our coach that he say the player leave early but because the coach did not specifically ask him, he could not call the runner out.  Is this correct?  The coach very clearly appealed the play, he just did not verbally direct the appeal to the plate umpire.

 

Hypertechnically and in the most pedantic sense, yes the coach did not correctly appeal but this wasn't handled properly in the slightest. The BU shouldn't have called the runner safe or made a ruling at all...as he stated, he wasn't even watching the runner on 3rd (nor should he have been). All it would have taken was a quick "Let's go ask <insert PU's name>". Or the PU could slowly walk up and find out what he's asking - he probably knew all along. This unnecessary game of gotcha is a one way ticket to game mgmt hell, for no purpose. 

[maven]

25 minutes ago, Guest Roger in Ohio said:

Last night during our Ohio High School Varsity baseball game, on a fly ball to the outfield the runner at third left early.  Our coach called time, approached the base umpire and appealed (dead ball appeal) that the player left early.  The base umpire called the runner safe because he was watching second.  The plate umpire said nothing.  After the game, the plate umpire told our coach that he say the player leave early but because the coach did not specifically ask him, he could not call the runner out.  Is this correct?  The coach very clearly appealed the play, he just did not verbally direct the appeal to the plate umpire.

Mods: this question should have its own thread.

OP: That's atrocious. I can tell you that I certainly wasn't on that game, and I sincerely hope that nobody in my association was either. There's nothing correct about how this crew handled the appeal.

Here's 8-2-6c, the Dead Ball Appeal provision of FED:

Quote

c. Dead Ball. The dead-ball appeal may be made: 1) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The administering umpire should then make a decision on the play. 2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made.

There's nothing in the rule, case plays, or anywhere else that dictates that coaches must "ask the right umpire." What a load of crap.

[Guest Roger in Ohio]

Thanks for the comments!!  I am not an umpire, but love digging into the rules and have fund nothing to indicate that the appeal must be made to the particular umpire.  Like I said, both umpires approached our coach after the game and informed our coach this is why the player was not called out.  The sad part is our team lost 2-1 and that was the go ahead run. 

[Umpire in Chief]

2 hours ago, maven said:

Mods: this question should have its own thread.

Done...

 

[BrianC14]

There's a name for umpires like this:   Adam Henry.   (LEO's will get the reference).

[maven]

1 hour ago, BrianC14 said:

There's a name for umpires like this:   Adam Henry.   (LEO's will get the reference).

I don't know, some Smitty's are great guys. They're just not great officials, and the sad part is that they could be, if only they were motivated to better themselves.

[BrianC14]

Just now, maven said:

I don't know, some Smitty's are great guys. They're just not great officials, and the sad part is that they could be, if only they were motivated to better themselves.

Can't disagree, but an official who makes a call/determination when he shouldn't (and knows full well that he doesn't have the information necessary to make that call/determination) is well beyond being a poor official, it's being an Adam Henry.

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, Guest Roger in Ohio said:

Thanks for the comments!!  I am not an umpire, but love digging into the rules and have fund nothing to indicate that the appeal must be made to the particular umpire.  Like I said, both umpires approached our coach after the game and informed our coach this is why the player was not called out.  The sad part is our team lost 2-1 and that was the go ahead run. 

So, what they're saying is that it is now the coach's responsibility to know, in two, three and four man crews, which umpire has which base in all situations...

[Tborze]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

So, what they're saying is that it is now the coach's responsibility to know, in two, three and four man crews, which umpire has which base in all situations...

If you're an umpire/coach you will! 

[OhioTex]

Oh no, At Varsity level too. I am a new Umpire in Central Ohio and in two man crews, I was taught,  Plate Umpire has primary responsibility on tag up if runner at  third, every time, simple as that. Plate = tag up at third. Even on fly ball to outfield down RF line, and plate ump "has the line" to make the F/F CnC call,  but then glance to third as Plate ump still has primary responsibility on third base tag up.  Depending on runner/out situation and base ump position, a  base ump can help out,  but taught to confer with partner if a question. 

[Mudisfun]

Not my call coach. Lets go ask (insert name here) who was watching that part of the play.

Last season has a coach go to the wrong umpire. We both realized quickly this little fact so I just asked, Skip what do you want? Ball was already dead so no issue there. Made the determination on his appeal and moved right along. Why open a can of crap if you do not need to? Does being this OOO make the game better?

[scrounge]

2 hours ago, OhioTex said:

Oh no, At Varsity level too. I am a new Umpire in Central Ohio and in two man crews, I was taught,  Plate Umpire has primary responsibility on tag up if runner at  third, every time, simple as that. Plate = tag up at third. Even on fly ball to outfield down RF line, and plate ump "has the line" to make the F/F CnC call,  but then glance to third as Plate ump still has primary responsibility on third base tag up.  Depending on runner/out situation and base ump position, a  base ump can help out,  but taught to confer with partner if a question. 

Welcome, fellow Central Ohio colleague....let me know if I can help in any way.

[maven]

On 5/10/2017 at 10:07 AM, scrounge said:

Hypertechnically and in the most pedantic sense, yes the coach did not correctly appeal

Scrounge, I hate to nitpick, but your post is marked as the "correct answer," and I don't think this statement is true. Nothing in any rule code requires coaches to appeal to the "proper" umpire. This is not a "technical" issue: there's no rule nor mechanic backing for this crew whatsoever.

There are rules for correctly appealing, but when there is more than one umpire, the crew will direct him to the proper umpire to rule on the appeal.

I mention it only to dispel the notion that the crew was "technically" right to deny an appeal based on which umpire received the appeal. They were not.

[scrounge]

Just now, maven said:

Scrounge, I hate to nitpick, but your post is marked as the "correct answer," and I don't think this statement is true. Nothing in any rule code requires coaches to appeal to the "proper" umpire. This is not a "technical" issue: there's no rule nor mechanic backing for this crew whatsoever.

There are rules for correctly appealing, but when there is more than one umpire, the crew will direct him to the proper umpire to rule on the appeal.

I mention it only to dispel the notion that the crew was "technically" right to deny an appeal based on which umpire received the appeal. They were not.

I would agree with you, it's certainly not required to appeal to the correct umpire, just that they may have squeaked by in the most shakiest of sense that they did allow an appeal (sort of) and an umpire made a ruling on it (horribly, given that he had no knowledge and shouldn't have ruled at all). It is incorrect to say the coach did not correctly appeal.

As you mentioned, I hope and pray that no one from my group handled it in this way.

[udbrky]

I had a partner point to me on an appeal on one of my bases and I was glad and would want it again - it was my call, I made it, and the coach was looking at me for the answer, I didn't have to try to get the attention to make the call.

[White47]

This kinda stuff aggravates me to no end. Umpiering is about getting the calls right, first and foremost. Your a team out there and it's your job. Plus what umpire doesn't want outs. (Ones that are scared to make the call).

But, this is an instance where did give my partner a non verbal cue (small point and a nod a shake or something similar) if I'm uic, or if I'm the field guy I just straight up point or look to him.

Non verbals should be a big part of your umping game.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, udbrky said:

I had a partner point to me on an appeal on one of my bases and I was glad and would want it again - it was my call, I made it, and the coach was looking at me for the answer, I didn't have to try to get the attention to make the call.

Over 99% of the time the crew knows when an appeal is coming and if there's any doubt they make eye contact and communicate (non verbally) who will rule on the appeal.

 

The OP is apparently the other < 1%