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Semantics ?


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Fed: Batter steps on plate while bunting, I call batter interference . Is this actually B.I. or is it called something different? Thanks.

 

 

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Semantics aside, the batter steps on the plate when "bunting" is nothing until he actually makes contact with the ball and his bat while his foot is on the plate.  Now that is a violation.  The mechanic I use is to emphatically point to the infraction and announce, "Time!  He's out!  He's out of the box!"  Repeat as necessary.     

7-3-2 . . . Hit the ball while either foot or knee is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter’s box or touching home plate.

PENALTY: For infraction of Articles 2 and 3, the ball becomes dead immediately and the batter is out.

7.3.2 SITUATION D: B1 hits (a) a fair ball, (b) a foul ball, (c) a foul tip while either foot or knee is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter’s box or touches home plate.  RULING: Illegal in (a), (b) and (c). The batter is out for making contact with the pitched ball while being out of the batter’s box or touching home plate.

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2 hours ago, Guest Grumpire said:

Is this actually B.I. or is it called something different?

The rule is slightly different in different codes, but it's never batter INT. It's an illegally batted ball.

IIRC, for OBR, touching the plate in itself is not a violation: the violation is having a foot on the ground completely outside the box and contacting the pitch (bunt or swing).

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9 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

Interestingthat the rule is specifically stating that the entire foot or knee must be outsidethe lines of the box, but the foot only needs to touch the plate. 

I don't think that's what the rule says.  If either the knee or the foot is (a) completely outside the batter's box, or (b) touching home plate (even if not completely outside the batter's box), it's illegal batting.

And, while the foot could be partially in the box and touching home plate, I don't think the knee could be (but I didn't measure to be sure -- I've never seen the knee portion of this rule come into play)

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6 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I don't think that's what the rule says.  If either the knee or the foot is (a) completely outside the batter's box, or (b) touching home plate (even if not completely outside the batter's box), it's illegal batting.

And, while the foot could be partially in the box and touching home plate, I don't think the knee could be (but I didn't measure to be sure -- I've never seen the knee portion of this rule come into play)

 

I'm not sure any batter could be fooled so bad, as to end up with their knee on the ground out side the box. The kid would have to have some pretty dirty off speed stuff for it to happen. 

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5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I don't think that's what the rule says.  If either the knee or the foot is (a) completely outside the batter's box, or (b) touching home plate (even if not completely outside the batter's box), it's illegal batting.

And, while the foot could be partially in the box and touching home plate, I don't think the knee could be (but I didn't measure to be sure -- I've never seen the knee portion of this rule come into play)

Okay forget the knee for the moment. 

The rule says what it says regarding the foot.  It has to be completely outside of the box, OR touching home plate. 

It's entirely possible for a batter's toes to touch the plate and not have that foot completely outside the box.

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7 minutes ago, White47 said:

I'm not sure any batter could be fooled so bad, as to end up with their knee on the ground out side the box. The kid would have to have some pretty dirty off speed stuff for it to happen. 

I have seen this knee situation come very close, when a batter was attempting to bunt a low pitch. It wouldn't have touched the plate, but close to being out of the box as he moved up in the box.

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3 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

Okay forget the knee for the moment. 

The rule says what it says regarding the foot.  It has to be completely outside of the box, OR touching home plate. 

It's entirely possible for a batter's toes to touch the plate and not have that foot completely outside the box.

depends on rule set.

FED: is pretty clear. if you make contact while touching the plate at all you are out. 7-3-2

NCAA:Its a bit more of a grey area, but my interp of the rule is the same as FED. if your touching it at all your out. 7-10a

OBR: Batters foot can touch plate as long as his foot is  completely out of the box. if his toe is just touching the plate its a live ball. 6.03a-1

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46 minutes ago, White47 said:

depends on rule set.

FED: is pretty clear. if you make contact while touching the plate at all you are out. 7-3-2

NCAA:Its a bit more of a grey area, but my interp of the rule is the same as FED. if your touching it at all your out. 7-10a

OBR: Batters foot can touch plate as long as his foot is  completely out of the box. if his toe is just touching the plate its a live ball. 6.03a-1

 

NCAA seems to be pretty ciear:

 

SECTION 10. An illegally batted ball is:
a.    A ball hit, fair or foul, by the batter when either one or both of the batter’s
feet are upon the ground entirely outside the lines of the batter’s box or when
touching home plate;

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5 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

 

NCAA seems to be pretty ciear:

 

SECTION 10. An illegally batted ball is:
a.    A ball hit, fair or foul, by the batter when either one or both of the batter’s
feet are upon the ground entirely outside the lines of the batter’s box or when
touching home plate;

What I looked at didn't read like that. I think my rule book that i have at work is a little older, so the wording has probably changed. 

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45 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

*sigh*

I will consider my life fulfilled when baseball is played under one set of rules. 

As pro ball, HS ball, and youth ball have substantially different priorities and skill levels, this wishful thinking (what, there should be one code for our convenience?) strikes me as misguided.

If you want just one code, officiate just one kind of ball. Wish granted!

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49 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

*sigh*

I will consider my life fulfilled when baseball is played under one set of rules. 

One of the best pieces of rule advice I have ever got was to, learn one code (preferable OBR), then just learn the differences. It turly simplified the rule book for me.   Although there is a lot of vernacular differences and other minior, there are only 12 big rule differences or areas that are treated differently. 

appeals, Illegal bats, illegal gloves, throwing from DBT, Trips to mound, positioning at time of pitch, fighting, defacing ball, pitcher going to the mouth, hidden ball play, illegal substitutions.    ( these are outlined in a book called BRD, baseball rule difference, I didn't make them up)

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2 minutes ago, White47 said:

One of the best pieces of rule advice I have ever got was to, learn one code (preferable OBR), then just learn the differences. It turly simplified the rule book for me.   Although there is a lot of vernacular differences and other minior, there are only 12 big rule differences or areas that are treated differently. 

appeals, Illegal bats, illegal gloves, throwing from DBT, Trips to mound, positioning at time of pitch, fighting, defacing ball, pitcher going to the mouth, hidden ball play, illegal substitutions.    ( these are outlined in a book called BRD, baseball rule difference, I didn't make them up)

Interesting.  I found that FOR ME it was just the opposite.  To learn FED, I had to "forget" almost everything I knew about OBR (back to about a fan's understanding of the rules).  I then learned FED (and, later NCAA) from scratch and recognized the differences.  For me, that was easier, and more complete, than learning one code and the differences from it.

I also found more that 12 "big rule differences" when I went through the books.  I created my "own" BRD shortcut -- an excel spreadsheet with columns for Rules Category, FED rule , NCAA rule, OBR rule.  I could reference that in just a few minutes on my way to the game, or standing at the trunk of my car before we took the field.  I had about 25 or 30 items listed that were important (could affect the game; reasonably likely to happen; not obvious to me) for me to keep straight.  I wonder if I still have that somewhere?

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5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Interesting.  I found that FOR ME it was just the opposite.  To learn FED, I had to "forget" almost everything I knew about OBR (back to about a fan's understanding of the rules).  I then learned FED (and, later NCAA) from scratch and recognized the differences.  For me, that was easier, and more complete, than learning one code and the differences from it.

I also found more that 12 "big rule differences" when I went through the books.  I created my "own" BRD shortcut -- an excel spreadsheet with columns for Rules Category, FED rule , NCAA rule, OBR rule.  I could reference that in just a few minutes on my way to the game, or standing at the trunk of my car before we took the field.  I had about 25 or 30 items listed that were important (could affect the game; reasonably likely to happen; not obvious to me) for me to keep straight.  I wonder if I still have that somewhere?

Everyone is different. and the 12 Difference thing is something I just quoted from a book. I know there are plenty more. 

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38 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I don't think any of the (major) sports have just one rules book.  I don't think baseball will be the first.

For me, there's only one sport.   I like to joke with my football counterparts that baseball players and officials have the common sense to come in out of the rain. ;)   

And you want to see some funky rules?   Take a look at volleyball.    "Number 7 substitutes for Number 10."    They have reentry, but #10 can ONLY come in for #7.    And the actual procedure for substitutions is a very formal process.   

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Within each of the big three codes, someone smarter than me could probably find 12 or more contradictions and/or proscriptions without penalty. 

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2 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

*sigh*

I will consider my life fulfilled when baseball is played under one set of rules. 

I could offer you the central Ohio area as about as close as you're likely to get to that. We're almost exclusively FED-based here, for good or ill (IMO good, but that's another thread to discuss that). Obviously all the school ball is FED, but the largest youth ball org is primarily FED-based with some minor local exceptions, etc. The major tournaments are FED-based, except for a small handful of Nations/USSSA tournaments. If you avoid those - and I do, for many reasons - and don't do MABL/MSBL, it's pretty much all FED. You could do well over 100 games a year and never touch a different rule code.

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52 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

1) For me, there's only one sport.   I like to joke with my football counterparts that baseball players and officials have the common sense to come in out of the rain. ;)   

 2) And you want to see some funky rules?   Take a look at volleyball.    "Number 7 substitutes for Number 10."    They have reentry, but #10 can ONLY come in for #7.    And the actual procedure for substitutions is a very formal process.   

1) IMO, an official can improve by working more than one sport.  And, an official who works one sport can be better when starting a second sport than someone new to officiating all together.  And, most sports need more officials.  So, you can help yourself and help sports in general by picking up a second (or third) sport.

2) Not (exactly) true, at least in FED and NCAAW (I don't know about USA or NCAAM).  #10 can only "reenter" in that spot, but if #5 has entered for #7, #10 can come in for #5.  It's in this regard) just like the batting order and re-entry for FED baseball.

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