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PIckoff throw to SS


Guest NJ Coach
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Guest NJ Coach

I've seen this addressed in a couple of recent threads (one started by me) that I can't locate. Imagine a little league game with F6 and F4 not holding a runner on second, luring him to take very a big lead

It's been said here that it is legal for a pitcher while still on the rubber to throw to the SS roughly halfway between the bases and in front of the leading runner to chase down and tag runner, so long as the pitcher didn't start the pitch first.

But the rationale wasn't explained,   Is this legal because this throw not near either base is still considered to an unoccupied base and the pitcher is trying to make a play ? 

or is this a legal play because while it's not considered throwing to an unoccupied base, it is not otherwise outlawed by any specific verbiage ?

or is this pickoff scenario from the rubber not legal after all ?

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3 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

I've seen this addressed in a couple of recent threads (one started by me) that I can't locate. Imagine a little league game with F6 and F4 not holding a runner on second, luring him to take very a big lead

It's been said here that it is legal for a pitcher while still on the rubber to throw to the SS roughly halfway between the bases and in front of the leading runner to chase down and tag runner, so long as the pitcher didn't start the pitch first.

But the rationale wasn't explained,   Is this legal because this throw not near either base is still considered to an unoccupied base and the pitcher is trying to make a play ? 

or is this a legal play because while it's not considered throwing to an unoccupied base, it is not otherwise outlawed by any specific verbiage ?

or is this pickoff scenario from the rubber not legal after all ?

Since you can feint to second, there's no need to throw directly to the bag.  As long as the throw is more toward second than to third or first, it's legal.

 

Note that in the play at first (or third in OBR), if the fielder is off the base and the throw is (more-or-less) directly over the bag, this is legal -- the rule says "throw to first or third base" not "throw to the first or third baseman."

 

(2) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to
first or third base and fails to complete the throw;

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Guest NJ Coach

So an actual throw to a shortstop perhaps up to 30 ft from second base from the rubber is considered 'feinting a throw to second' in the rules ?

 

To me, a feint means a fake throw to the base.

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2 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

So an actual throw to a shortstop perhaps up to 30 ft from second base from the rubber is considered 'feinting a throw to second' in the rules ?

 

To me, a feint means a fake throw to the base.

You may disagree with the rules but they are what they are.

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Just now, Guest NJ Coach said:

So an actual throw to a shortstop perhaps up to 30 ft from second base from the rubber is considered 'feinting a throw to second' in the rules ?

 

To me, a feint means a fake throw to the base.

Think of it like this...

A pitcher can physically step in four directions--towards home, first, second, or third. If he steps towards second, but does not throw to the base, it is a feint. He can choose not to throw, or throw elsewhere, as long it is not more in a direction to another base than the one he steps.

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18 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

I've seen this addressed in a couple of recent threads (one started by me) that I can't locate. Imagine a little league game with F6 and F4 not holding a runner on second, luring him to take very a big lead

It's been said here that it is legal for a pitcher while still on the rubber to throw to the SS roughly halfway between the bases and in front of the leading runner to chase down and tag runner, so long as the pitcher didn't start the pitch first.

But the rationale wasn't explained,   Is this legal because this throw not near either base is still considered to an unoccupied base and the pitcher is trying to make a play ? 

or is this a legal play because while it's not considered throwing to an unoccupied base, it is not otherwise outlawed by any specific verbiage ?

or is this pickoff scenario from the rubber not legal after all ?

Everyone else has you covered on why this is a legal feint, but I want to point out what seems to be a misunderstanding of an occupied base.  2nd base is occupied because there is a runner there.  The runner is what makes a base occupied, where it sounds like you were thinking the fielder was what makes a base occupied.

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Guest NJ Coach

actually no...I understand that second was the (legally) occupied base.  What's got me perplexed is that in two different games, two different carded/certified umps have called balks on my P for the same play...the throw to SS nowhere near the base to try tag the runner with a big lead.

While the throws weren't to third, both claimed that throw to SS is still a throw to an unoccupied base (nevermind that the pitcher was trying to 'make a play').

Does it matter which direction the pitcher spins around ?

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11 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

actually no...I understand that second was the (legally) occupied base.  What's got me perplexed is that in two different games, two different carded/certified umps have called balks on my P for the same play...the throw to SS nowhere near the base to try tag the runner with a big lead.

While the throws weren't to third, both claimed that throw to SS is still a throw to an unoccupied base (nevermind that the pitcher was trying to 'make a play').

Does it matter which direction the pitcher spins around ?

Not in the least. 

Sounds like they need some help.

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5 hours ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

actually no...I understand that second was the (legally) occupied base.  What's got me perplexed is that in two different games, two different carded/certified umps have called balks on my P for the same play...the throw to SS nowhere near the base to try tag the runner with a big lead.

While the throws weren't to third, both claimed that throw to SS is still a throw to an unoccupied base (nevermind that the pitcher was trying to 'make a play').

Does it matter which direction the pitcher spins around ?

Next time that you get this line, ask the stooge.... I mean umpire.... which unoccupied base the pitcher was throwing to.

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Something for  NJ Coach to consider, and I know @Kevin_K and @LMSANS will remember as well....

I'm going to go out on limb and say NJ Coach is in New Jersey. On our HS state re certification test in 2015, (maybe 2016?) we had a question about throwing to the SS who is off the base with a runner on 2nd. In NJ's ultimate wisdom, the "correct" answer was "this is a balk", and the rule site was a case play regarding a throw to F3 off of 1B. :eek::WTF!!

I tried to no avail to argue this questions with more than one person and got nowhere.

Given that, if NJ Coach is indeed referring to calls made by "carded officials" in NJ, it doesn't surprise me he's running across guys calling this a balk.

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6 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Something for  NJ Coach to consider, and I know @Kevin_K and @LMSANS will remember as well....

I'm going to go out on limb and say NJ Coach is in New Jersey. On our HS state re certification test in 2015, (maybe 2016?) we had a question about throwing to the SS who is off the base with a runner on 2nd. In NJ's ultimate wisdom, the "correct" answer was "this is a balk", and the rule site was a case play regarding a throw to F3 off of 1B. :eek::WTF!!

I tried to no avail to argue this questions with more than one person and got nowhere.

Given that, if NJ Coach is indeed referring to calls made by "carded officials" in NJ, it doesn't surprise me he's running across guys calling this a balk.

I had the same argument. If I remember correctly, @Richvee and I made it at the same time and in the same place.

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If you guys know the name of the Shore Interpreter...an extremely vocal and obstinate man (initials VS).  He told us that we would get credit for that question, because they were wrong.  He does that with at least one question every year.

Carded official is a minimalist standard that unfortunately is prevalent around here. They get games because of availability, not performance.  I wish @Richvee and @Kevin_K were geographically closer.  I have stopped doing a couple of leagues because I couldn't get a decent partner.  I stick with the HS, but every year it seems I block someone else in Arbiter.

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On 4/26/2017 at 7:19 PM, LMSANS said:

If you guys know the name of the Shore Interpreter...an extremely vocal and obstinate man (initials VS).  He told us that we would get credit for that question, because they were wrong.  He does that with at least one question every year.

Carded official is a minimalist standard that unfortunately is prevalent around here. They get games because of availability, not performance.  I wish @Richvee and @Kevin_K were geographically closer.  I have stopped doing a couple of leagues because I couldn't get a decent partner.  I stick with the HS, but every year it seems I block someone else in Arbiter.

Be thankful that you have that option.   We don't have it where I work.   :(

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