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hill2933

1st ejection(s) of the season

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hill2933    33

Bottom 5 close rivalry game. Kid tries to score and throw beats him to the plate. Runner slides wide to avoid tag but misses the plate. Catchers dives back and tags him before he can get back to touch. Called the out and the runner sits up and throws his helmet to the backstop. Ran him and then coach wanted to know why I couldn't understand that his player was just emotional. When I decided not to allow him to stay with us the coach says (loud enough for everyone to hear) "well that's bullSH*#!" And there was number two. Gues that's what I get for taking last minute games.

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Every game I've called this season someone has almost gotten tossed. I don't understand why they think we should just take such BS.

And it sounds like two good EJs to me. Perhaps the coach should help said emotional kid learn how to control his emotions.

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hill2933    33

He did ask me if I have ever worked with kids. And when I informed him of 20+ years in law enforcement he said "well then you should know." I told him that all I know is when people make poor decisions that there are consequences. Seems to carry over to both lines of work.

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VolUmp    212

 

26 minutes ago, hill2933 said:

He did ask me if I have ever worked with kids. And when I informed him of 20+ years in law enforcement he said "well then you should know." I told him that all I know is when people make poor decisions that there are consequences. Seems to carry over to both lines of work.

 

You don't have a choice here.  This isn't a judgment call.  It's like asking you to bend the rules on strike three because a kid is emotional.

FED Rule 3-3-1 states the six actions that are automatic ejections. Throwing equipment is one of them. Period.  Every official and coach should have these two pages memorized.

Don't ever answer personal questions like, "Have you ever worked with kids?"

Totally irrelevant question. Totally irrelevant answer. Only relevance is to what you add to the EJ report.

If the coach doesn't like the rule, there is a forum where he can seek to get it changed.

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Thunderheads    2,360
9 hours ago, jonathantullos said:

Every game I've called this season someone has almost gotten tossed. I don't understand why they think we should just take such BS.

And it sounds like two good EJs to me. Perhaps the coach should help said emotional kid learn how to control his emotions.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 

....wow............  I just don't see how that's possible

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2 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

....wow............  I just don't see how that's possible

It's easy: I'm the "new kid" in my association and the coaches are trying to figure out my limits. But that is likely another thread altogether....

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Thunderheads    2,360
3 minutes ago, jonathantullos said:

It's easy: I'm the "new kid" in my association and the coaches are trying to figure out my limits. But that is likely another thread altogether....

well...that's all horsepuckey right there .......   

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ricka56    1,062
10 hours ago, hill2933 said:

Bottom 5 close rivalry game. Kid tries to score and throw beats him to the plate. Runner slides wide to avoid tag but misses the plate. Catchers dives back and tags him before he can get back to touch. Called the out and the runner sits up and throws his helmet to the backstop. Ran him and then coach wanted to know why I couldn't understand that his player was just emotional. When I decided not to allow him to stay with us the coach says (loud enough for everyone to hear) "well that's bullSH*#!" And there was number two. Gues that's what I get for taking last minute games.

Helmet throw was in disgust with my call (or possibly so) = EJ.
Helmet throw was in frustration of failing to score = I didn't notice that.

I'm not EJ'g over such an emotional reaction not directed at me or an opposing player. 

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6 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

Helmet throw was in disgust with my call (or possibly so) = EJ.
Helmet throw was in frustration of failing to score = I didn't notice that.

I'm not EJ'g over such an emotional reaction not directed at me or an opposing player. 

 
 

I look at it as a safety issue. Is someone likely to be in the area of the backstop in this situation? No. But what if he had thrown it in the area of the dugout and hit someone? What if it had been a bat instead of a helmet (not that a helmet is any better but...)? I agree that the spirit of the rule has to be taken into account (I have done this many times myself) but I also think some rules are cut and dry and should be enforced as such. This especially applies to rules that are based on safety concerns.

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ricka56    1,062

You are free to cite the rule to justify your EJ and handle your game as you see fit, but I think it may have been a case of using a rule to solve a problem that didn't exist. 

What would have happened if you ignored the helmet throw. The defense is happy that they prevented a run, and the defense goes back on defense in a competitive rivalry game. Ejecting changed the game dynamics. There are times when we have no choice in changing the game dynamics, but we should avoid doing so whenever possible. 

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CJK    80

If "he's upset and emotional" is a valid reason to ignore equipment abuse, is it also going to be a valid reason to ignore it when he calls you a "motherf***er"?

Of course not.  You dumped him according to the rules, and you got to choose whether to  dump his coach for making it personal or profane.

You handled business, and the next guy will appreciate it.

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ricka56    1,062
3 minutes ago, CJK said:

If "he's upset and emotional" is a valid reason to ignore equipment abuse, is it also going to be a valid reason to ignore it when he calls you a "motherf***er"?

Apples and bowling balls

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beerguy55    180
39 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

Helmet throw was in disgust with my call (or possibly so) = EJ.
Helmet throw was in frustration of failing to score = I didn't notice that.

I'm not EJ'g over such an emotional reaction not directed at me or an opposing player. 

If "throwing equipment" is an automatic ejection, and you ignore it, now you're entering "I'm going to enforce the rules when I see fit" territory.

It's like ignoring the fact that a kid missed home plate on his home run trot, "not noticing" and calling him safe on appeal because the kid might cry that his home run got taken away.

37 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

What would have happened if you ignored the helmet throw. 

Opposing coach comes out and says that throwing your helmet is an automatic ejection - he knows this because one of his players got tossed last week, and he and his boys have learned their lesson.  You have a choice between A) lying and saying you didn't see it, or B) telling the coach you're not enforcing the rule.  HC asks you to talk to your partner to A) see if he saw it, or B) verify the rule.  Either you refuse, or your partner says the kid should be ejected.  You refuse again.  Coach files a protest if you acknowledge the helmet throw, or, if both umpires claim to have not seen it, is left believing he has two umpires willing to lie to protect themselves.

The ejection is an unfortunate situation, but ignoring a black and white rule leaves a mess.  There are enough crappy umpires out there that most coaches are going into a game believing you're inept, and hoping you prove otherwise.  Don't give them personal anecdotal experience to how they think you roll.

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CJK    80
55 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

Apples and bowling balls

Not at all.

He earned his ejection fair and square either way; don't deprive him of it because he's a snowflake.

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spiffdawg7    54
36 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

If "throwing equipment" is an automatic ejection, and you ignore it, now you're entering "I'm going to enforce the rules when I see fit" territory.

It's like ignoring the fact that a kid missed home plate on his home run trot, "not noticing" and calling him safe on appeal because the kid might cry that his home run got taken away.

Opposing coach comes out and says that throwing your helmet is an automatic ejection - he knows this because one of his players got tossed last week, and he and his boys have learned their lesson.  You have a choice between A) lying and saying you didn't see it, or B) telling the coach you're not enforcing the rule.  HC asks you to talk to your partner to A) see if he saw it, or B) verify the rule.  Either you refuse, or your partner says the kid should be ejected.  You refuse again.  Coach files a protest if you acknowledge the helmet throw, or, if both umpires claim to have not seen it, is left believing he has two umpires willing to lie to protect themselves.

The ejection is an unfortunate situation, but ignoring a black and white rule leaves a mess.  There are enough crappy umpires out there that most coaches are going into a game believing you're inept, and hoping you prove otherwise.  Don't give them personal anecdotal experience to how they think you roll.

I disagree.  There has to be gray area in the rule.  The rule states the player is to be ejected for deliberately throwing a bat or helmet.  What would you say if your catcher was ejected for throwing a bat towards the offensive team's dugout?  What if your catcher is ejected because he takes his helmet off and throws it ten feet away while trying to catch a popup? I know these would be two ridiculous ejections, but reading the rule without interpretation would lead to these ejections.  So Ricka56 and myself interpret the rule to mean deliberately throwing equipment in disgust of an umpires call.  Now if the player chunked his helmet in disgust of himself I would give him a warning and tell him he was on thin ice.  I just don't think the rule can be read in black and white.

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Aging_Arbiter    612
1 hour ago, ricka56 said:

Ejecting changed the game dynamics

I will disagree.  THROWING THE HELMET (which is ejectable) changed.......the game dynamics

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catsbackr    371
2 hours ago, jonathantullos said:

It's easy: I'm the "new kid" in my association and the coaches are trying to figure out my limits. But that is likely another thread altogether....

Well, knowing what you now know, don't you wish you'd have dumped one of them early?  

 

Word gets around pretty quick about what your limits are, plus in my state there's a fairly hefty fine and suspension, too!

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6 minutes ago, catsbackr said:

Well, knowing what you know now, don't you wish you'd have dumped one of them early?  

 

Word gets around pretty quick about what your limits are, plus in my state there's a fairly hefty fine and suspension, too!

 

Hindsight is 20/20 and every game has been, and I'm sure will continue to be, a learning experience. There is actually only one that I wish I had tossed who I didn't. The rest were more annoying than anything outright ejectable or even warnable. 

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ricka56    1,062
1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Opposing coach comes out and says that throwing your helmet is an automatic ejection - he knows this because one of his players got tossed last week, and he and his boys have learned their lesson.  You have a choice between A) lying and saying you didn't see it, or B) telling the coach you're not enforcing the rule.  HC asks you to talk to your partner to A) see if he saw it, or B) verify the rule.  Either you refuse, or your partner says the kid should be ejected.  You refuse again.  Coach files a protest if you acknowledge the helmet throw, or, if both umpires claim to have not seen it, is left believing he has two umpires willing to lie to protect themselves.

The ejection is an unfortunate situation, but ignoring a black and white rule leaves a mess.  There are enough crappy umpires out there that most coaches are going into a game believing you're inept, and hoping you prove otherwise.  Don't give them personal anecdotal experience to how they think you roll.

https://www.amazon.com/151-Ways-Ruin-Baseball-Game/dp/1460953096

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CJK    80

I'll assume that #1 is "Enforce the rules inconsistently according to your whim."

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ricka56    1,062
5 minutes ago, CJK said:

I'll assume that #1 is "Enforce the rules inconsistently according to your whim."

I'll pray for your partners (of whom I will never be) on their way to Turdville. 

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ElkOil    694
1 hour ago, jonathantullos said:

The rest were more annoying than anything outright ejectable or even warnable. 

So is your original statement that someone almost got tossed in every game still valid? Seems like an annoyance should be pretty far from an ejection. Many times it isn't them testing you that causes game management or personality issues. As you gain experience and grow, you may be amazed at how much better people treat you, but not for the reasons you think today.

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2 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

So is your original statement that someone almost got tossed in every game still valid? Seems like an annoyance should be pretty far from an ejection. Many times it isn't them testing you that causes game management or personality issues. As you gain experience and grow, you may be amazed at how much better people treat you, but not for the reasons you think today.

 

Perhaps I should re-think my original statement. My goal is not to eject anyone, though I will should it become necessary just as I'm sure any of us would. 

14 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

I'll pray for your partners (of whom I will never be) on their way to Turdville. 

Might as well add me to your prayer list if you feel that the ejection wasn't a good one. As I have previously stated, I view slinging equipment as a safety issue and therefore am on @hill2933's side.

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ricka56    1,062
7 minutes ago, jonathantullos said:

Might as well add me to your prayer list if you feel that the ejection wasn't a good one. As I have previously stated, I view slinging equipment as a safety issue and therefore am on @hill2933's side.

It really does come down to the level of play that you are working. At youth baseball levels, safety is a high priority. At higher levels where athletes are strong/fast, it is much harder to keep them safe. Using your youth ball safety standards at a HS varsity game would be impractical, IMO.

...but I will add your partner, who didn't ask for the trip to Turdville, to my pray list ...you, on the other hand, are on your own.

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