Runner interference on attempted DP

[Guest Coach]

Former ump for 9 yrs - 25 long years ago - and now many year coach. This one has me stumped and assume I'd probably be buyin the beer for the ump room. Had a RI called on my kid as he went to second and he stayed vertical - no collision, contact or slide - and didn't peel off . Home plate - not field - ump overturns the out at 2 and wild throw at 1 and calls both runners out. I agree with that, I guess, even though my 13 yr old kid isn't savvy enuff to know he has engagement rules on DPs. 

My question is the scoring. I plated 2 runs in the deal....very very slow developing DP, would have never got the out at 1b and run 2 scored on overthrow to 1b. Runner 1 was past on deck circle ...scoring on deep grounder to SS...by the time throw gets to 2b and they try to roll DP. Score runner 1 or no?  

[maven]

You don't mention the rule set, but in FED or any level that adopts FED slide rules, your runner will be guilty of a force play slide rule violation for altering the pattern of play by not sliding. The penalty for that is that the runner is out, the BR is out, and other runners return.

Timing is immaterial. Based on what was called, it sounds like FPSR, correctly enforced.

Tell your runner to slide legally, and the rest will be on the defense.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, maven said:

You don't mention the rule set, but in FED or any level that adopts FED slide rules, your runner will be guilty of a force play slide rule violation for altering the pattern of play by not sliding. The penalty for that is that the runner is out, the BR is out, and other runners return.

Timing is immaterial. Based on what was called, it sounds like FPSR, correctly enforced.

Tell your runner to slide legally, and the rest will be on the defense.

I think there's a case play/interp in FED that says if the runner is only about half way to 2B then it isn't INT.  OP doesn't say where the runner was, only that he was going to 2B.

In OBR it isn't INT if all the runner did was keep running.

[maven]

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

I think there's a case play/interp in FED that says if the runner is only about half way to 2B then it isn't INT.  OP doesn't say where the runner was, only that he was going to 2B.

In OBR it isn't INT if all the runner did was keep running.

The OP wasn't challenging the INT call. He wanted to know whether his runners had to return. Given an FPSR violation, the answer is yes.

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, maven said:

The OP wasn't challenging the INT call. He wanted to know whether his runners had to return. Given an FPSR violation, the answer is yes.

It doesn't say where the runner was - just that he was going to 2B.  It does make a difference.

[rzanew]

11 hours ago, Guest Coach said:

Former ump for 9 yrs - 25 long years ago - and now many year coach. This one has me stumped and assume I'd probably be buyin the beer for the ump room. Had a RI called on my kid as he went to second and he stayed vertical - no collision, contact or slide - and didn't peel off . Home plate - not field - ump overturns the out at 2 and wild throw at 1 and calls both runners out. I agree with that, I guess, even though my 13 yr old kid isn't savvy enuff to know he has engagement rules on DPs. 

My question is the scoring. I plated 2 runs in the deal....very very slow developing DP, would have never got the out at 1b and run 2 scored on overthrow to 1b. Runner 1 was past on deck circle ...scoring on deep grounder to SS...by the time throw gets to 2b and they try to roll DP. Score runner 1 or no?  

Assuming the start of the play the bases were loaded and there was 1 out, with the DP ending the inning, no runs would score.  

Assuming no outs to start, for FED, all runners return to TOP base.  You have 2 outs and runners on 2nd and 3rd (no runs score).  For OBR, runners return TOI (time of interference).  Assuming a fast runner on third, you might get one run in.

[ALStripes17]

Assuming the start of the play the bases were loaded and there was 1 out, with the DP ending the inning, no runs would score.  
Assuming no outs to start, for FED, all runners return to TOP base.  You have 2 outs and runners on 2nd and 3rd (no runs score).  For OBR, runners return TOI (time of interference).  Assuming a fast runner on third, you might get one run in.

For OBR, if the batter-runner has not reached first base when INT is called, then all runners return to TOP. The exception to this is an intervening play at the plate.


Runners return in OBR in the aforementioned scenario.

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[noumpere]

3 hours ago, rzanew said:

.  For OBR, runners return TOI (time of interference).  Assuming a fast runner on third, you might get one run in.

You have that backwards (or at least a little sideways).  In FED, runners return TOI, except on a FPSR.  In OBR, runners return TOP when the BR hasn't reached first at TOI, otherwise, it's TOI.

[Guest Coach]

15 hours ago, maven said:

You don't mention the rule set, but in FED or any level that adopts FED slide rules, your runner will be guilty of a force play slide rule violation for altering the pattern of play by not sliding. The penalty for that is that the runner is out, the BR is out, and other runners return.

Timing is immaterial. Based on what was called, it sounds like FPSR, correctly enforced.

Tell your runner to slide legally, and the rest will be on the defense.

Thx. I forgot to add that he scored #1 originally and then wiped it. I usually love having  discussions over rules interpretations with umpires… I've been there but haven't had to take an exam for a long time… But this one I just kind of had to take because I wasn't sure . We usually follow high school rules or OBR. 

To answer other input  1 out, yes very fast runner on 3rd.  Deep ground ball to 5.5 hole he rolls automatically, and was at on deck circle. Remember home plate called it late, over rode field ump, so actual timing of call was definite late but don't know if that even matters. 

[kylehutson]

Not debating the ruling, just the scoring as the OP asked...

13 minutes ago, Guest Coach said:

To answer other input  1 out

This is all we need to know, along with knowing that the BR didn't reach first safely on the play (he was called out on R1's interference). In that case, no runs can score.

[ALStripes17]

Thx. I forgot to add that he scored #1 originally and then wiped it. I usually love having  discussions over rules interpretations with umpires… I've been there but haven't had to take an exam for a long time… But this one I just kind of had to take because I wasn't sure . We usually follow high school rules or OBR. 

To answer other input  1 out, yes very fast runner on 3rd.  Deep ground ball to 5.5 hole he rolls automatically, and was at on deck circle. Remember home plate called it late, over rode field ump, so actual timing of call was definite late but don't know if that even matters. 

First: fast runner doesn't matter here. In all codes on this sort of play, the runners will a return to base occupied at TOP. The prescribed penalty is there to penalize the offense for interfering.



Second: In a 2 man crew, if a throw is made to first on a DP, mechanics prescribe the INT at 2B as the PU's call. BU is turning with the throw to 1B and is less likely to see the back-end action of an INT at 2B.


FWIW, I am not a fan of the 'The PU over-ruled the BU' comment. There are more things at play in a game and I expect a former umpire to know that even when umpires get-together, we don't overrule each other. We simply provide additional info for the calling umpire.


I don't envision this play having an 'over-ruling' factor to it. Maybe a delayed call by the umpire who is prescribed to see it...

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[noumpere]

26 minutes ago, Guest Coach said:

Remember home plate called it late, over rode field ump, so actual timing of call was definite late but don't know if that even matters. 

The timing of the actual call is never (?) at issue -- the timing of the out itself might be (but not in this case).  And, the FPSR violation at second is *usually* PU's call -- BU has to turn with the throw and might not see any violation.

[Guest Coach]

Thanks all. That's why I'm a helluva coach as this was to win the game- which we ended up losing in extra innings - and while everyone was freaking,  out I had to say OK as I had no grounds to contest. As it turns out I'm glad I did    bc it was correct call. 

Also before you get all defensive Blue about me saying "overturned " the call, that was wrong choice of words by me. I get rotations, play flow etc. For the reason you pointed out FU certainly was truthful when it was discussed and he said he "didn't see it". To a layperson, or in my case asst coaches, that is akin to a backjudge calling a roughing the passer call. It appears like they are a mile away from the play. 

Thanks again for all the feedback and the work you all do.  I know it ain't easy!  

 

[ALStripes17]

Thanks all. That's why I'm a helluva coach as this was to win the game- which we ended up losing in extra innings - and while everyone was freaking,  out I had to say OK as I had no grounds to contest. As it turns out I'm glad I did    bc it was correct call. 
Also before you get all defensive Blue about me saying "overturned " the call, that was wrong choice of words by me. I get rotations, play flow etc. For the reason you pointed out FU certainly was truthful when it was discussed and he said he "didn't see it". To a layperson, or in my case asst coaches, that is akin to a backjudge calling a roughing the passer call. It appears like they are a mile away from the play. 
Thanks again for all the feedback and the work you all do.  I know it ain't easy!  
 

No issues. I only mentioned something due to your identification as having previous officiating experience. We can always use more coaches with level heads and understanding!



And also, I moonlight as a back judge during the fall... And if I were to ever throw a flag for roughing the passer, my crew would not only wave off the flag, but also take the time to escort me to my vehicle before the game continued. They would run without a BJ after that.

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