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Youth Baseball Balk Warnings


Guest NJ Coach
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Guest NJ Coach

Probably every little league program has balk warning rules for pitchers,  say each pitcher gets 1 warning before balk is enforced, or 2..or however many.

Imagine this scenario and others like it.  R3 has very big lead.  Pitcher begins delivery and R3 starts to steal home. Pitcher balks in delivery and throws to third base.  R3 steals home safely.   Ump calls balk 'warning.'  Should R3 be sent back to third base even though he scored despite the balk ?  It seems to me the balk warning concept is only intended for situations when runners aren't trying to advance at that moment.  Or put another way, a defense shouldn't benefit from a balk warning.

Thoughts about this ?  Are any of you aware of particular local little league rules that make this distinction ?

 

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Balk is not ignored in OBR under these conditions. BR must reach 1B safely and all other runners must advance at least one base in order to disregard the balk. In this situation, enforce the balk. 8.05 penalty. (Old reference number)

If there's no pitch, then the 'batter' part of that caveat is ignored. So any overthrow here, we would keep the ball live and allow all runners to advance at their own risk while ignoring the balk (assuming all runners reached the next base safely).


However, if the throw to F5 is caught by F5 immediately, then we should kill and enforce the balk. The delayed dead ball part of the rule is meant for overthrows and/or pitches that are put into play (non-exhaustive list).
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18 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:


If there's no pitch, then the 'batter' part of that caveat is ignored. So any overthrow here, we would keep the ball live and allow all runners to advance at their own risk while ignoring the balk (assuming all runners reached the next base safely).


However, if the throw to F5 is caught by F5 immediately, then we should kill and enforce the balk. The delayed dead ball part of the rule is meant for overthrows and/or pitches that are put into play (non-exhaustive list).

I was not aware of that caveat. Do you have a rule cite or interp?

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I was not aware of that caveat. Do you have a rule cite or interp?

New codification: Rule 6.02 Approved Ruling (just underneath the penalty you mentioned).



That same approved ruling is just below the penalty you cited in the old codification.
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18 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

I was not aware of that caveat. Do you have a rule cite or interp?

Here's one.  there are others:

7.9 CALLING "TIME" AFTER A BALK
The penalty for balk allows the play to proceed without reference to the balk if the batter and all
runners advance one base on the pitch following the balk (i.e., the actual pitch and/or action
caused by the batter hitting the ball). The umpire shall not call "Time" until play stops following
the balk. The question therefore arises as to when the umpire is to call "Time" to kill the ball
after calling a balk. The following cases should help explain when play is considered "stopped"
and a what moment the umpire should call "Time" following the call of balk:
(1) If the pitcher balks and does not throw the ball, call "That's a balk; Time!" and enforce the
balk.
(2) If the balk is followed by a batted ball, leave the ball in play until it is apparent that the batter
and all runners will not advance one base. At that moment, call "Time" and enforce the balk.
If, however, the batter reaches first base and all runners advance at least one base on play
following the balk, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
EXAMPLES:
(a) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a fly ball that is caught, call "Time" the
moment the fly ball is caught. Then enforce the balk.
(b) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a ground-out on a previous runner at the
base to which he would be entitled because of the balk, call "Time" the moment the out is
made. Then enforce the balk.
(3) If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the
catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations
covered in item (5) below.)
(4) If the balk is followed by a pick-off throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call "Time"
the moment the fielder catches the ball. Then enforce the balk.
(5) If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call
"Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that
situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(6) If the balk is followed by a pitch that strikes the batter, call "Time" the moment the pitch
strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batter forces all other runners to
advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(7) If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball
Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his
own risk. In that situation the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call
"Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
(8) If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05
provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call "Time"
until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and an fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
Note that even if the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of
a wild pitch following a balk, the balk is still "acknowledged." That is, the pitch is nullified
and the batter will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred
unless:
(a) The wild pitch was ball four on which all runners advanced one base; or
(b) The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one
base.
In both situations (a) and (b) above, play proceeds without reference to the balk, because all
runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base on the pitch following the balk.

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30 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:


If there's no pitch, then the 'batter' part of that caveat is ignored. So any overthrow here, we would keep the ball live and allow all runners to advance at their own risk while ignoring the balk (assuming all runners reached the next base safely).


However, if the throw to F5 is caught by F5 immediately, then we should kill and enforce the balk. The delayed dead ball part of the rule is meant for overthrows and/or pitches that are put into play (non-exhaustive list).

You have some imprecise language above, as evidenced by @noumpere post from PBUC/MLBUM, but the gist is correct. With a wild pitch or pickoff throw the balk is not ignored. It is "acknowledged for the batter absent the 'Unless" conditions.

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14 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Here's one.  there are others:

7.9 CALLING "TIME" AFTER A BALK
The penalty for balk allows the play to proceed without reference to the balk if the batter and all
runners advance one base on the pitch following the balk (i.e., the actual pitch and/or action
caused by the batter hitting the ball). The umpire shall not call "Time" until play stops following
the balk. The question therefore arises as to when the umpire is to call "Time" to kill the ball
after calling a balk. The following cases should help explain when play is considered "stopped"
and a what moment the umpire should call "Time" following the call of balk:
(1) If the pitcher balks and does not throw the ball, call "That's a balk; Time!" and enforce the
balk.
(2) If the balk is followed by a batted ball, leave the ball in play until it is apparent that the batter
and all runners will not advance one base. At that moment, call "Time" and enforce the balk.
If, however, the batter reaches first base and all runners advance at least one base on play
following the balk, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
EXAMPLES:
(a) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a fly ball that is caught, call "Time" the
moment the fly ball is caught. Then enforce the balk.
(b) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a ground-out on a previous runner at the
base to which he would be entitled because of the balk, call "Time" the moment the out is
made. Then enforce the balk.
(3) If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the
catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations
covered in item (5) below.)
(4) If the balk is followed by a pick-off throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call "Time"
the moment the fielder catches the ball. Then enforce the balk.
(5) If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call
"Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that
situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(6) If the balk is followed by a pitch that strikes the batter, call "Time" the moment the pitch
strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batter forces all other runners to
advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(7) If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball
Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his
own risk. In that situation the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call
"Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
(8) If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05
provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call "Time"
until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and an fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
Note that even if the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of
a wild pitch following a balk, the balk is still "acknowledged." That is, the pitch is nullified
and the batter will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred
unless:
(a) The wild pitch was ball four on which all runners advanced one base; or
(b) The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one
base.
In both situations (a) and (b) above, play proceeds without reference to the balk, because all
runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base on the pitch following the balk.

I still don't see where it says to ignore the balk if only the runners advance in any situation.

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13 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You have some imprecise language above, as evidenced by @noumpere post from PBUC/MLBUM, but the gist is correct. With a wild pitch or pickoff throw the balk is not ignored. It is "acknowledged for the batter absent the 'Unless" conditions.

Agree, balk is not ignored.

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50 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:


If there's no pitch, then the 'batter' part of that caveat is ignored. So any overthrow here, we would keep the ball live and allow all runners to advance at their own risk while ignoring the balk (assuming all runners reached the next base safely).


However, if the throw to F5 is caught by F5 immediately, then we should kill and enforce the balk. The delayed dead ball part of the rule is meant for overthrows and/or pitches that are put into play (non-exhaustive list).

Sorry ALStripes17, I meant to highlight this portion. We don't ignore the balk in this situation. We only ignore the balk if the BR and all other runners advance at least one base safely. I hope I'm getting my point across and not confusing the situation. In appearance, it seems as if the balk is ignored, but technically it is not. I get that.

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Sorry ALStripes17, I meant to highlight this portion. We don't ignore the balk in this situation. We only ignore the balk if the BR and all other runners advance at least one base safely. I hope I'm getting my point across and not confusing the situation. In appearance, it seems as if the balk is ignored, but technically it is not. I get that.

If there is no pitch, how can the batter advance?

Why else would those Approved Rulings be in there? It's so runners can advance further than the one base award on a balk. There can be overthrows to bases and the balk is ignored if all runners advance (there is no BR because there is no pitch). That's what my cited AR provides for.


Edit to add: I believe I understand the communication confusion. For purposes of the batter and his count, a balk is still 'acknowledged.' The purpose of my posts is that runners can continue to advance even if the batter doesn't reach 1B. We have approved rulings that allow only runners to advance and the penalty of the balk is ignored, because it would hurt the offense (it would bring runners back if they advanced further than the one base award).

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7 hours ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

I'm having a hard time explaining....It goes like this:  R3 big lead. F1 interrupts delivery and throws to F5.  Ump shouts "balk" and R3 scores on the play.   Since this it the first balk call, it's a "warning" and youth pitcher gets a do-over.  I wonder if you are aware of youth leagues that specifically allow this run to score....or wouldhe get sent back due to it being the first balk call ( and a do-over) for the pitcher.)

In the two youth leagues I work, both require warnings but say nothing about runners. The several times I've had the situation, we've sent runners back--i.e., do-overs--with no arguments from coaches. I've sent the leadership of both leagues a query and a link to this discussion, suggesting that their rules clarify the appropriate resolution.

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2 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

If there is no pitch, how can the batter advance?

Why else would those Approved Rulings be in there? It's so runners can advance further than the one base award on a balk. There can be overthrows to bases and the balk is ignored if all runners advance (there is no BR because there is no pitch). That's what my cited AR provides for.

 

Edit to add: I believe I understand the communication confusion. For purposes of the batter and his count, a balk is still 'acknowledged.' The purpose of my posts is that runners can continue to advance even if the batter doesn't reach 1B. We have approved rulings that allow only runners to advance and the penalty of the balk is ignored, because it would hurt the offense (it would bring runners back if they advanced further than the one base award).

Agree, we're on the same page, just a bit of a misunderstanding. It's all good and I enjoy reading your contributions to this site! Thanks for the discussion.

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In the jr-LL I work, they say warning during the season and then live for playoffs.  Nothing more.  So when I have my plate meeting I tell the coaches a balk warning is a do over, plain & simple.  It it screws enough offenses maybe they will get the idea.

 

i probably only call one or two a year.  They must have pretty good daddy-coaches.

 

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9 hours ago, Mister B said:

I did a LL Majors scrimmage game last night. I warned a batter for stepping out of the box. (Actually, he was stomping to the dugout after swinging and missing) Next pitch is a called strike, and again, batter stomps off towards the dugout. I called the third strike. I felt bad, but for the rest of the game, the coaches, players and fans were hyper-aware of the new rule. "Get in the box!!" was loud and clear. It actually did speed up the game a little. Although both teams had good catchers so fewer passed balls helped as well. A couple parents asked me about the rule and the consensus was that if it speeds up the games, they are all for it. But nobody seemed upset. One of the opposing coaches thought it was a bit harsh for this early in the season. 

The batter was on my son's team and we did discuss the rule in depth at one of our practices. Prior to that, I had made about 6 warnings. 

So I would agree, penalties are much more effective than warnings. 

You have to warn first.

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57 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

You have to warn first.

Warned him after the swinging first strike, he walked out again after a called second strike and when he was 20 feet from HP, I called the third strike. 

My point was after the penalty, I didn't have to say anything. The coaches, teammates and parents were reminding them to stay in the box. 

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On 4/6/2017 at 9:15 AM, JonnyCat said:

Coaches should be teaching proper pitching mechanics.

And I guess umpires should know the rules.  

I hate your response as much as you hate mine.  For the record, I hate my response too.  It's not appropriate, and it's far too simplistic when addressing a complex problem.

At the youth levels especially you have coaches thrown in, volunteers, who MIGHT have a passing knowledge of baseball in general, but almost certainly have no experience in dealing with pitching, pitching mechanics, let alone the intricate balk rules.  And these teams have a hard enough time coming up with any coach, let alone a pitching coach.  When you hear a "coach" say "Just throw strikes Johnny" it's because that's about as much feedback he can intelligently provide.

These guys need an assist from the umpires from time to time, and don't need the snark or disdain, any more than the umpires do.  I can tell you from personal experience that if you want an inexperienced coach to be your best friend, help him understand what he needs to do.

With the warning or without, the inexperienced coach is looking for a life preserver, and often times the only one they see is an umpire.

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19 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

And I guess umpires should know the rules.  

I hate my your response as much as you hate mine.  For the record, I hate my response too.  It's not appropriate, and it's far too simplistic when addressing a complex problem.

At the youth levels especially you have coaches thrown in, volunteers, who MIGHT have a passing knowledge of baseball in general, but almost certainly have no experience in dealing with pitching, pitching mechanics, let alone the intricate balk rules.  And these teams have a hard enough time coming up with any coach, let alone a pitching coach.  When you hear a "coach" say "Just throw strikes Johnny" it's because that's about as much feedback he can intelligently provide.

These guys need an assist from the umpires from time to time, and don't need the snark or disdain, any more than the umpires do.  I can tell you from personal experience that if you want an inexperienced coach to be your best friend, help him understand what he needs to do.

With the warning or without, the inexperienced coach is looking for a life preserver, and often times the only one they see is an umpire.

I'm sorry if you interpreted my response as snarky, that was not my intention. The comment was intertwined with the whole "balk warning" discussion. Yes, umpires should know the rules. Yes, coaches should be teaching proper pitching mechanics. Does it always happen? No, of course not. I have no issue with "balk warnings" if that's what leagues want to do. I understand what you are saying, my comment was not intended to demean anyone, but rather just a comment reagrding the whole "balk warning" discussion and how to deal with different situations that may arise with warnings.

For the record, I spent 14 years at my local LL, 13 as a manager, 13 as a board member, and 5 consecutive years as league president before my youngest went to play HS baseball. Even though I call HS ball now, I'm still involved with LL on our district level as an umpire and trainer. I completely understand the plight of coaches and the struggles that can face not only volunteer coaches, but league administrators, too. However, I always tried to educate myself on coaching and umpiring as much as possible. That doesn't always work for everybody, but I alway felt it was my obligation and responsibility to do my best whether coaching or umpiring.

Being a coach has made me a better umpire, and umpiring has made me a better coach. (Even though I retired from coaching a few years ago.)

That's for the feedback. I always appreciate the civil banter we can have on this forum.

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15 hours ago, Mister B said:

Warned him after the swinging first strike, he walked out again after a called second strike and when he was 20 feet from HP, I called the third strike. 

My point was after the penalty, I didn't have to say anything. The coaches, teammates and parents were reminding them to stay in the box. 

I'm not sure about LL, but in HS there are 7-8 reasons a batter may leave the batters box. Swinging at a pitch is one of them. 

Regarding balk warnings.  Years ago I was doing a LL game and I called a balk.  The coach came out and asked if he gets a warning.  I looked at the kid and said, "don't do that again".  

 

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