Win by Forfeit? Does it mean a thing???

[VolUmp]

I'm glad for this Forum, because I shall just vent a bit without being flamed by ... well ... the flamers.

8 or 9 years ago, I had a son playing 13-year-old travel ball on a HS feeder team.  We made it to the Champ Game, but were clearly outmatched.  The UIC of the game (with whom I had worked for 4 or 5 years ... the man has since passed away), was a miserable man, and only seemed happy when someone was made miserable.  It was in the late innings of the game, our team was down by several runs, and we had that situation where the other team's catcher made the last out and no backup catcher was ready to warm up the pitcher.

So, the UIC, in his hateful attitude yelled, "Let's GO!!!  Get a catcher out here!!!" at the other team's bench.  They were already past the point of no return, so the closest Asst Coach stepped out of the dugout and called back to him, "We won't take any warm up pitches."  Everyone of us heard what he said, thought it sounded reasonable, and didn't think a thing of it.

Before we knew what happened, the UIC threw out the AC ... on the grounds that he "mouthed off" about getting a catcher out on the field.  When the HC and AC both came out to question the UIC ... we actually heard them saying, "Mr. Blue ... we were just saying we'll speed things along by not taking warm ups!" he held his ground.  Then with no warning, he yelled, "That's a Forfeit!  Visiting Team Wins!"  Not even his two partners would cooperate and they refused to leave the field.  The HC then asked, "If my AC agrees to leave the park, will you resume the game?" and the UIC said, "he has 30 seconds.  So, the AC left and went to the parking lot.

I can tell you, as a coach for most of these boys, NONE of them would have wanted the CHAMP trophy by winning on a forfeit.  My own son later said, "I would have just refused to accept the trophy at the ceremony ... I thought the whole thing was fine with Mr. Duane (AC on the other team).  What FLOORED me was I realized that several of our PARENTS were both excited to think we had just won by forfeit, and then disappointed that it was waved off.  9 outs later, the game was over, and the better team won.

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *  

So jump ahead, 9 years, all those boys are now finishing college, and I'm calling a 12u Champ game last Sunday.  The winning coach had been a thorn in my side all day, but we were able to shake hands and get through it each time.  Now, on a banger at home plate, he lost it.  He insisted that I didn't know a particular slide rule, and that I was "screwing" his team.  After he refused to leave the field, I ejected him.  He still would not leave, and his assistants wouldn't intervene.  I gave him 60 seconds before I would forfeit the game, when the TD showed up and walked him out.  The TD came right back and said, "I'm gonna let him stay in the dugout.  Don't worry, he won't say another word.  (I took this to mean that the TD would babysit him and throw him out if he did say a word.  I challenged the TD, and he bowed up and told me it's his way or the highway, and they'll finish the game without me if need be.  (My partner would have walked.)

I went to the opposing coach, explained that I was between a rock and a hard place, that as far as I'm concerned, the game is over, and it's 6-0 forfeit, but I assume he would rather let the boys play than take a meaningless championship.  Just like what happened 9 years earlier, he balked.  I could tell he wanted me to forfeit the game, let my partner walk with me, and take the trophy.  He finally reluctantly stated, ""Yeah, let's just play."

I ask, rhetorically, what the hell is wrong with these parents?  Who wants to win by forfeit?  The 12-yr-old boys certainly don't.  They want to win it on the field or ditch the meaningless trophy.

I confronted the TD the next day and to his credit, he took the wind out of my sails by saying he was wrong, he should have made the HC leave the park, he didn't think in the heat of the moment that was right, but the results were disheartening.  The HC in question continued to coach the game from the dugout, mouth off at both officials, complain, and the TD had to leave the dugout to attend to his other duties.

Back to the question at hand.  Why are the parents showing less class than the prepubescent boys?  Why would a trophy won on a forfeit mean a damned thing to the parents?

The team who should have lost by forfeit ended up blowing out the opponent, and it was just a sad situation all around.

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   * 

This will NEVER happen again, because I've shown the TD in the rule book every possible reference to a warning, and an ejection, the protocol, the TD's involvement, the time limits for vacating the field, etc. etc. etc.  So that's good.  BUT — the lingering question of how a 40-year-old coach would want the tainted victory for his boys (who would not want it) slays me.

ANY FEEDBACK WOULD BE APPRECIATED EVEN IF YOU'RE IN COMPLETE DISAGREEMENT.

[SJA]

In my opinion, people in today's world lack Honor. It is all about winning without regard how it is achieved. The flowers of yesterday are the seeds of today. Sad.

“It is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them.”
Mark Twain

:-(

[beerguy55]

Four years ago we went into the gold medal game of a tournament but got rained out.  Tournament rules say the winner is to be decided by coin flip.

We lost.  The other team's parents cheered.  And then the team manager proceed to post the team's "victory" announcement and photos to their Facebook page.

It's not about class, it's about vicarious living - and some people will take a W any way they can, because they've never experienced it...or they crave it.

In a Corporate community softball tournament - you know, one of those things meant to encourage sportsmanship and collaboration and community and getting to know each other - gold medal game, HT winning by a considerable margin with two out in the last inning.  Mixed slow pitch, three females required, one girl takes a bad hop and breaks her nose, has to leave the game.  HT has no more girls on the bench, not allowed to finish with eight players, but does have a female in the stands who works for the company.  She comes in, plays the final out (a pop fly that does not go anywhere near her).   

And the losing team PROTESTS the game on the grounds of playing with an ineligible player, as she didn't sign in pre-game.  Tournament director has no real choice but to honor the protest and forfeits the other team.  "Winning" team gleefully accepts their trophy.  Cheering, hootin' and hollerin' and boisterous celebration.

Some people love to win...others need to win.

Would I accept a trophy won by forfeit - only if it was shown that the team, including the kids, were cheating...and probably still holding my nose at the same time.   It would always seem tainted to me and my players.

[Aging_Arbiter]

Many in today's society feel that they are "owed" something. They don't want to have to work for it, or earn it.  It all started with this politically correctness bullSH*# such as "participation trophy/ribbons, etc.  If you want to win, put some effort into it folks!

[Mudisfun]

Funny this subject came up... I just had this conversation with a parent the other day as we watched A) the F1 from the other team act like a jack wagon and B) the parents acting just like the F1... guess it is a learned behavior.

My son is playing 14U and I cheer for him. When he does good I cheer and clap. When he tries and makes a mistake I clap and cheer good effort. If they win or lose I can honestly care less. You never will win everything in life and this is a good place to start learning how to lose with dignity and grace. More importantly try and learn something from the loss. If I want to see trophies I go to my Mother's house and get mine out from a thousand years ago.

In your examples it is just sad... so many adults that from the time they were kids had to get a trophy just for showing up. Is it a technical win? Yes since the rules require XYZ however you would not find me cheering especially when the other team for 81/2 innings kicked the crap out of us...  My neighbor asked me to fill in for their team a week or so back... so last inning and the score is 30 something to 10 (yes, we were the 10) and one of the players from the other team got into it with the umpire who ejected him. Now the umpire was dumb and kept getting into a long distance argument with this guy versus shutting his mouth but long story short the umpire announced a forfeit. Not one person on our team accepted that and even the 'coach' went to the umpire and TD and said there was no way we would accept a win when they KILLED us on the field. At that point the jack wagon had left the field and they decided to give the game to the real winners. Thankfully my neighbors team had some class.

[kylehutson]

First of all, around here, umpires can't (or at least don't) declare forfeits, that's for the TD or other administration. Umpires can send both teams to the dugout until the administration makes a decision on the forfeit.

Secondly, in your situation, I would have told the TD, "Either he goes or I go. I don't need the money, there are lots of other places that need umpires, and I'm not going to put up with you not having my back." And if he chose not to, I would have no problem walking away, and making sure I never work another tourney when he's the TD. And I'd bring as many umpire-friends as I could with me (which would be a considerable number).

To your larger point, I agree that "win at all costs" is a plague on society, and there's really not much we can do about it other than to make sure that our own legacy holds to a higher standard than that.

[lilleaguer]

5 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Many in today's society feel that they are "owed" something. They don't want to have to work for it, or earn it.  It all started with this politically correctness bullSH*# such as "participation trophy/ribbons, etc.  If you want to win, put some effort into it folks!

Perhaps. Though if all anyone got was a participation ribbon, perhaps nobody would care so much about winning at all costs.

[Rich Ives]

On 3/21/2017 at 8:51 AM, SJA said:

In my opinion, people in today's world lack Honor. It is all about winning without regard how it is achieved. The flowers of yesterday are the seeds of today. Sad.

 

I think things are actually better today.  A lot of win-at-all-costs  actions, both in sports and in life, have been legislated away, and most of the old ways have become unacceptable even without the revised rules.

[SJA]

I think that's the unfortunate reasoning. The "actions" have had to be "legislated" away. They weren't changed due to peoples' good conscience, moral, or ethic thought as to others.

:-(

 

[VolUmp]

16 hours ago, SJA said:

I think that's the unfortunate reasoning. The "actions" have had to be "legislated" away. They weren't changed due to peoples' good conscience, moral, or ethic thought as to others.

:-(

Kinda like most people finally wear seat belts now ... not because they're smarter, but there are laws that are enforced with fines and points if they are disobeyed. RIDIC.

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Kinda like most people finally wear seat belts now ... not because they're smarter, but there are laws that are enforced with fines and points if they are disobeyed. RIDIC.

I have often thought that rather than mandatory seatbelt usage, we should just replace the airbags with a giant spike / fishhook type design in the middle of the steering wheel.  TI would be a mess at first, but soon all the unsafe drivers would be off the road. 

 

 

[Rich Ives]

On 3/23/2017 at 9:02 AM, noumpere said:

I have often thought that rather than mandatory seatbelt usage, we should just replace the airbags with a giant spike / fishhook type design in the middle of the steering wheel.  TI would be a mess at first, but soon all the unsafe drivers would be off the road. 

 

 

Apparently you've never been in an unavoidable (for you) collision.