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FleasOf1000Camels

OBS, INT or NOTHING?

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FED rules: 1 out, R1 is on 3rd, R2 is on 1st.  R2 is running on the pitch, and F4 is breaking to cover 2nd.  B3 hits soft blooper toward 2nd base.

Sun is low in the sky behind 3rd base dugout, and F4 throws his hands up as if to say "I can't see it".  F4 has stopped running, and is down in a "duck and cover" position about 2 steps from base, directly in path of R2.  R2 veers to his left to avoid F4, just as F4 steps forward to get out of R2's path, then R2 cuts back to his right.  F6 dives across the bag and gets the ball on the short hop just as R2 is awkwardly sliding head-first to the bag.  R2's arm hits F6's glove and ball comes out, rolling toward CF.  F6 retrieves ball as R1 scores, R2 stays at 2nd and BR holds at 1st.

DC wants interference against R2 for contact with F6, as he was making play on batted ball.

OC wants obstruction against F4 for forcing R2 to leave his established path to the base.

I ruled F4 was protected, and the contact between R2 and F6 was nothing other than a tag that wasn't held, and let the play stand.

What do you think?

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Why protect F4 when (a) he wasn't fielding, and (b) F6 fielded the batted ball? What is the purpose of "protection?"

Sounds like OBS to me.

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My understanding is the protection goes to the player most likely to play the ball, in your judgment.  At the point F4 indicates he can't see the ball, and then curls up into the fetal position, has he not forfeited that protection? 

I'm assuming you reserve the right to change your judgment to "who's mostly likely to play the ball" up to and until the ball has actually been played?

My assumption is if F4 doesn't get protection, and is now ruled to have obstructed R1 the subsequent act of R1 contacting/hindering F6 playing the batted ball would become moot - or can we call both?  Or is play dead as soon as OBS is observed?

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The way I read this, it sounds like F6 is protected, F4 obstructs R2, and the contact between R2 and F6 is simply nothing. That said, R2's minimum base award would be 2nd, so it sounds like everything played out and the umpire(s) wouldn't have to change anything after the fact. 

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2 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

FED rules: 1 out, R1 is on 3rd, R2 is on 1st.  R2 is running on the pitch, and F4 is breaking to cover 2nd.  B3 hits soft blooper toward 2nd base.

Wait.. what?

I know I'm new to the terminology, but I really thought I had it down and understood... But if this description is accurate then I am WAY off...

I thought whatever base you start the play at is what give you your R#... And I can't recall ever seeing a B3? (Batting 3rd in the lineup?)

I would think this would be labeled as follows..

1 out, R1, R3.  R1 is running on the pitch, and F4 is breaking to cover 2nd.  BR hits soft blooper toward 2nd base.

 

Can someone point me in the right direction as to where I have gone astray?

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2 minutes ago, Radie said:

Wait.. what?

I know I'm new to the terminology, but I really thought I had it down and understood... But if this description is accurate then I am WAY off...

I thought whatever base you start the play at is what give you your R#... And I can't recall ever seeing a B3? (Batting 3rd in the lineup?)

I would where thought this would be labeled this as follows..

1 out, R1, R3.  R1 is running on the pitch, and F4 is breaking to cover 2nd.  BR hits soft blooper toward 2nd base.

 

Can someone point me in the right direction as to where I have gone astray?

Welcome to FED. Their thought process is that the runner closest to home is R1, then subsequent runners are R2 and R3. Interestingly enough, my dad found this the most logical when I asked him who would be R1 with bases loaded. 

As for B3, that's either the third batter in the lineup or the third batter of the inning. Truth be told, I don't know. 

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24 minutes ago, maven said:

Why protect F4 when (a) he wasn't fielding, and (b) F6 fielded the batted ball? What is the purpose of "protection?"

Sounds like OBS to me.

This brings up an interesting question of the situation was slightly different...

What is a fielder consider doing when he bails out at the last second if he loses sight of the ball... And I mean, last second...

He's under it, waving people off... Loses it at the last moment and jerks to one side as he covers his head (or makes some other obvious "bail out" move) and obstructes a runner...

 

When is he no longer fielding that ball? The MOMENT he bails, or does he have a half beat or so where he's still protected?

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1 minute ago, Radie said:

This brings up an interesting question of the situation was slightly different...

What is a fielder consider doing when he bails out at the last second if he loses sight of the ball... And I mean, last second...

He's under it, waving people off... Loses it at the last moment and jerks to one side as he covers his head (or makes some other obvious "bail out" move) and obstructes a runner...

 

When is he no longer fielding that ball? The MOMENT he bails, or does he have a half beat or so where he's still protected?

I'd protect him until the ball lands and gets outside of "a step and a reach." 

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16 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Welcome to FED. Their thought process is that the runner closest to home is R1, then subsequent runners are R2 and R3. Interestingly enough, my dad found this the most logical when I asked him who would be R1 with bases loaded. 

As for B3, that's either the third batter in the lineup or the third batter of the inning. Truth be told, I don't know. 

My initial instinct, without being taught the terminology, was to do it the FED way - it was more about helping me identify and explain the leading runner (especially when discussing two runners on the same base).   As well, for the purposes of identification R1 is always R1, no matter the scenario, no matter what R1 does or where he goes. 

When assigning by base I'm unclear if you are supposed to change R1 to R2 if they round second base and attempt to go to third,  or if you always maintain their original name (I stick with the original designation)

Having said that, as soon as I saw people describing by assigning runners by base it made total sense to me and that's now my preference.  

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Just now, beerguy55 said:

My initial instinct, without being taught the terminology, was to do it the FED way - it was more about helping me identify and explain the leading runner (especially when discussing two runners on the same base).   As well, for the purposes of identification R1 is always R1, no matter the scenario, no matter what R1 does or where he goes. 

When assigning by base I'm unclear if you are supposed to change R1 to R2 if they round second base and attempt to go to third,  or if you always maintain their original name (I stick with the original designation)

Having said that, as soon as I saw people describing by assigning runners by base it made total sense to me and that's now my preference.  

R1 just makes more sense to me than R2 on second. 

If the runner starts at R1, he remains R1 for anything pertaining to that play, whether it be scoring on a double or an appeal for missing 2nd. 

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3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

My understanding is the protection goes to the player most likely to play the ball, in your judgment.  At the point F4 indicates he can't see the ball, and then curls up into the fetal position, has he not forfeited that protection? 

I agree

I'm assuming you reserve the right to change your judgment to "who's mostly likely to play the ball" up to and until the ball has actually been played?

Yes

My assumption is if F4 doesn't get protection, and is now ruled to have obstructed R1 the subsequent act of R1 contacting/hindering F6 playing the batted ball would become moot - or can we call both?  Or is play dead as soon as OBS is observed?

I can't see calling INT on a runner who had to alter his path to avoid a fielder not fielding the ball. I've got OBS on F4. FED rules, so ball remains alive, R3 scores (or whatever you want to call the guy who started 3B)

Quote

 

If we agree with the OBS call, the call in OBR comes interesting. Do we kill the play when R1 contacts F6's glove, saying at this point the obstructed runner was being played on....If yes, then do we not award R3 home since he didn't start running home until after the play was made on the obstructed runner?

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4 hours ago, Richvee said:

If we agree with the OBS call, the call in OBR comes interesting. Do we kill the play when R1 contacts F6's glove, saying at this point the obstructed runner was being played on....If yes, then do we not award R3 home since he didn't start running home until after the play was made on the obstructed runner?

I'd say it depends on where R1 was when there was contact. If he was already safely on 2B, would you consider him being played on? I wouldn't think so. 

If you do, you award runners where they would've been had the obstruction not occurred, so if you feel R3 would've scored, go ahead and let him. 

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15 hours ago, Richvee said:

If we agree with the OBS call, the call in OBR comes interesting. Do we kill the play when R1 contacts F6's glove, saying at this point the obstructed runner was being played on....If yes, then do we not award R3 home since he didn't start running home until after the play was made on the obstructed runner?

I don't see any substantive difference between FED and OBR: as I see the play, F6 is trying to field a batted ball, so he is not yet playing on the runner.

It is certainly possible to have one fielder obstruct a runner, and have that same runner subsequently interfere with another, protected, fielder. This play has the potential to be exactly that.

FED has a case play where IIRC R2 is obstructed rounding 3B and then interferes (and maybe commits MC) with F2 at the plate; the ruling is to enforce both/all penalties. So score R2 before ejecting him.

For this play, which doesn't involve scoring, if we rule both OBS and INT, then we would kill it at the INT, call out R1, and return any other runners. If the BR hasn't reached 1B at TOI, we'd award it to him.

If it's OBS but not INT — if F6 has the ball and is making a play on R1 when incidental contact knocks the ball loose — then we probably play on. I can't see awarding R1 3B here, so his award would be 2B, which he achieved safely during play. And of course if F6 retires R1, we'd award him 2B

For my part, I disagree with the FED notion of (always) penalizing both infractions. OBS earns the runner an award, but an award is the right to run the bases legally without liability to be put out. If while advancing the obstructed runner subsequently commits a baserunning infraction like INT or MC that would retire him, then he's out (and ejected, if MC). If he wanted his award, then he shouldn't have committed an infraction.

That's as authoritative as all get out. :)

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5 hours ago, maven said:

I don't see any substantive difference between FED and OBR: as I see the play, F6 is trying to field a batted ball, so he is not yet playing on the runner.

It is certainly possible to have one fielder obstruct a runner, and have that same runner subsequently interfere with another, protected, fielder. This play has the potential to be exactly that.

FED has a case play where IIRC R2 is obstructed rounding 3B and then interferes (and maybe commits MC) with F2 at the plate; the ruling is to enforce both/all penalties. So score R2 before ejecting him.

For this play, which doesn't involve scoring, if we rule both OBS and INT, then we would kill it at the INT, call out R1, and return any other runners. If the BR hasn't reached 1B at TOI, we'd award it to him.

If it's OBS but not INT — if F6 has the ball and is making a play on R1 when incidental contact knocks the ball loose — then we probably play on. I can't see awarding R1 3B here, so his award would be 2B, which he achieved safely during play. And of course if F6 retires R1, we'd award him 2B

For my part, I disagree with the FED notion of (always) penalizing both infractions. OBS earns the runner an award, but an award is the right to run the bases legally without liability to be put out. If while advancing the obstructed runner subsequently commits a baserunning infraction like INT or MC that would retire him, then he's out (and ejected, if MC). If he wanted his award, then he shouldn't have committed an infraction.

That's as authoritative as all get out. :)

I understand the OBS and INT on the same play. In the case book, I believe the runner is obstructed rounding 3B and then commits INT at the plate on F2. In the above OP, we have a runner who may have hindered F6's attempt at fielding the ball BECAUSE he was obstructed and needed to alter his path to 2B. The way I "see" this play, had F4 not obstructed R1, R1 goes to the bag without hindering F6. I can't see that being INT. 

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