Balk called after discussion

[Guest Kcody]

High school. Runner on 3rd, 2 outs. Runner takes off toward home (pitcher is set). Coach screams "STOP!" to his runner. Pitcher steps off rubber from the back to make eye contact with the runner. Coach then informs the umpires that the pitcher committed a balk. Runner goes back to 3rd while coach talks to field ump. Field ump speaks with home plate umpire. They then say it was a balk and award home to the runner. My question, how can he reverse a "no call"? Isn't it a dead ball immediately for a balk? Without balk being called, there was never a dead ball called. 

[Richvee]

"Coach screams "STOP!" to his runner. Pitcher steps off rubber from the back to make eye contact with the runner. Coach then informs the umpires that the pitcher committed a balk. Runner goes back to 3rd while coach talks to field ump."

I'm going to assume the runner started down the line, stopped, and went back to 3rd. Time would then be called as coach talked with BU about a balk. Umpires confer, and call a balk. Maybe the coach noticed F1's hands separated before stepping off...Maybe his free foot moved before stepping off. Who knows? But whatever OC told BU,he agreed with,and got confirmation from his partner that he saw the same thing.

"Isn't it a dead ball immediately for a balk? Without balk being called, there was never a dead ball called. "

irrelevant. Nothing happened after F1 stepped off the rubber. Time must have been called to discuss what just happened. Sounds like the coach convinced the crew F1 did something that was indeed a balk.

[beerguy55]

27 minutes ago, Richvee said:

"Coach screams "STOP!" to his runner. Pitcher steps off rubber from the back to make eye contact with the runner. Coach then informs the umpires that the pitcher committed a balk. Runner goes back to 3rd while coach talks to field ump."

I'm going to assume the runner started down the line, stopped, and went back to 3rd. Time would then be called as coach talked with BU about a balk. Umpires confer, and call a balk. Maybe the coach noticed F1's hands separated before stepping off...Maybe his free foot moved before stepping off. Who knows? But whatever OC told BU,he agreed with,and got confirmation from his partner that he saw the same thing.

"Isn't it a dead ball immediately for a balk? Without balk being called, there was never a dead ball called. "

irrelevant. Nothing happened after F1 stepped off the rubber. Time must have been called to discuss what just happened. Sounds like the coach convinced the crew F1 did something that was indeed a balk.

On a side note, it almost sounds like a set play to induce a balk, in which case..bravo.  Or I'm just a cynic.

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

On a side note, it almost sounds like a set play to induce a balk, in which case..bravo.  Or I'm just a cynic.

Agreed.  I'm pretty sure I would NOT have a balk in the case presented -- but if the umpires had one, it's fine that it was "retroactive."

[scrounge]

Something about this story doesn't add up. Did he commit a balk and THEN step off? Did he flinch at the yelling of "STOP"? Did he do nothing and the off coach buy a call somehow? Not enough detail to really understand what's going on here, at least to me.

 

[maven]

57 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Agreed.  I'm pretty sure I would NOT have a balk in the case presented -- but if the umpires had one, it's fine that it was "retroactive."

 

30 minutes ago, scrounge said:

Something about this story doesn't add up. Did he commit a balk and THEN step off? Did he flinch at the yelling of "STOP"? Did he do nothing and the off coach buy a call somehow? Not enough detail to really understand what's going on here, at least to me.

 

I'm somewhere in the vicinity of these posts. If F1 did something illegal after the coach screamed, then that's on the coach. Kill it and reset.

If F1 committed a balk prior to the coach screaming, I'd like to think I'd get it without being talked into it.

In general, getting talked into a balk is bad optics: if it were that bad, the crew should have gotten it on their own. So in principle a "retroactive" balk can work, but I'd use it quite sparingly, maybe for a gross miss.

[Stan W.]

Of course all situations have a bit of HTBT.............but over the years, I've had a few coaches who try and induce a balk this way. It would be up to the umpire to decide if the "STOP" was an attempt at inducement. Of course there is a rule against that...........

NFHS 3-3-1N - A coach, player, substitute, or bench personnel shall not:

N. call "time" or use ANY command or commit any act for the purpose of causing a balk. (emphasis mine) 

The worst one was a 3rd base coach simulating the runner breaking for home. He got no balk and a personal ticket on the 'Ol Parking Lot Express, leaving off the field, for the dugout, and the parking lot and all points beyond...........All Aboooooooooard!!  

[kstrunk]

I think I'd have to fail pretty miserably to allow this to happen, and I say it that way because to call this, BOTH umps would've seen something illegal that they failed to call. If neither saw it, it shouldn't be called. But if either saw it and didn't call it until after the coach brought it to their attention, it was perhaps a borderline infraction, i.e... hands separating simultaneously to stepping off or something along those lines. 

 I'd probably be more apt to tell a coach something along the lines of...  'I won't call a balk because you think I should, and even if we missed something, the idea of us calling a balk NOW, simply because you said we should, is a recipe for disaster going forward! Back to the dugout, let's play ball.'. 

[noumpere]

I can see it on some specific rules based issue (for example, a 3-1 move in codes where that isn't allowed) -- on more "judgment" issues -- not so much.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, kstrunk said:

I think I'd have to fail pretty miserably to allow this to happen, and I say it that way because to call this, BOTH umps would've seen something illegal that they failed to call. If neither saw it, it shouldn't be called. But if either saw it and didn't call it until after the coach brought it to their attention, it was perhaps a borderline infraction, i.e... hands separating simultaneously to stepping off or something along those lines. 

 I'd probably be more apt to tell a coach something along the lines of...  'I won't call a balk because you think I should, and even if we missed something, the idea of us calling a balk NOW, simply because you said we should, is a recipe for disaster going forward! Back to the dugout, let's play ball.'. 

I get the impression that the coach became aware of either a new ruling, new point of emphasis, a new interpretation...or a loophole - maybe even something specific to the area, league or tournament he was in - and then created the situation to induce the act...goes out to Blue and says "hey, isn't this what they talked about at the meeting last month, that it's a balk now?"  And Blue remembers something, talks to his partner, and goes with it.