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Guest Larry

Courtesy Runner Question

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Guest Larry

In Fed, if a courtesy runner is used for the pitcher and the offensive team bats around, does this courtesy runner have to run for the pitcher for the rest of the game? or can the pitcher run this time around, and then later in the game, that same courtesy runner runs? Basically, does the courtesy runner then run for that player for the rest of the game or can you run whichever one you want whenever you want?

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Either can run. Prior to last year, the wording was ambiguous, but they clarified it then:

12-1-1

1. At any time, the team at bat may use courtesy runners for the pitcher and/or the catcher. In the event that the offensive team bats around, the pitcher and/or catcher who had a courtesy runner inserted on their behalf may bat in their normal position in the batting order.

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The CR rule says that the offensive may use a CR (their choice). That means that they may choose to not use one. And nothing in the rules requires them to keep using one if they previously chosen to use one.  

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57 minutes ago, Guest Larry said:

In Fed, if a courtesy runner is used for the pitcher and the offensive team bats around, does this courtesy runner have to run for the pitcher for the rest of the game? or can the pitcher run this time around, and then later in the game, that same courtesy runner runs? Basically, does the courtesy runner then run for that player for the rest of the game or can you run whichever one you want whenever you want?

Also in addition to the above. The Courtesy Runner (CR) is technically running for the position of Pitcher or Catcher, NOT for the player. As an example; Paul is the Pitcher and Carl is his Catcher. In the 1st inning CR Peter comes in to run for Paul. CR Chet comes in to run for Carl. In the 4th inning Paul and Carl trade positions. If Peter remains a Courtesy Runner he must now run for Carl who is the Pitcher. Chet is the CR for the Catcher Paul.

In Fed this rule occasionally gets overlooked by coaches. In the example above, if the Courtesy Runners stayed with the player and not the position, when they entered the game as a CR they would be considered an "Illegal Substitute".

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6 hours ago, Donny7 said:

Also in addition to the above. The Courtesy Runner (CR) is technically running for the position of Pitcher or Catcher, NOT for the player. As an example; Paul is the Pitcher and Carl is his Catcher. In the 1st inning CR Peter comes in to run for Paul. CR Chet comes in to run for Carl. In the 4th inning Paul and Carl trade positions. If Peter remains a Courtesy Runner he must now run for Carl who is the Pitcher. Chet is the CR for the Catcher Paul.

In Fed this rule occasionally gets overlooked by coaches. In the example above, if the Courtesy Runners stayed with the player and not the position, when they entered the game as a CR they would be considered an "Illegal Substitute".

For Donny7 or anyone else for that matter, would you enforce this to the letter of the law if you caught it yourself? Would you wait for the opposing coach to point it out? Does it depend on the level of ball?

I am just looking to learn. It seems like quite an obscure rule.

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For Donny7 or anyone else for that matter, would you enforce this to the letter of the law if you caught it yourself? Would you wait for the opposing coach to point it out? Does it depend on the level of ball?

I am just looking to learn. It seems like quite an obscure rule.

Umpires should be noting courtesy runners when they enter the game. This should always be caught and should be disallowed if the coach is attempting to put in the 'wrong' courtesy runner. In saying that, this penalty should never have to be applied if we are doing our jobs.

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I enforce it as soon as I see it. On the lineup card after the plate meeting I make a section that says CR and then I write a "P" and under it I write "C" and when a courtesy runner enters the first time I'll write what number the runner is and for what position they ran for, that way I'll have a reference in the later innings. 

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1 hour ago, Mussgrass said:

For Donny7 or anyone else for that matter, would you enforce this to the letter of the law if you caught it yourself? Would you wait for the opposing coach to point it out? Does it depend on the level of ball?

I am just looking to learn. It seems like quite an obscure rule.

Yes.  No.  No.

And, while F1 / F2 switching positions might not happen often, there are other CR issues that can / do come up (using someone previously in the game; using the same CR for F1 and F2 in different innings (because that's allowed under some codes); CR for the PH for F2) where the umpire should disallow the CR before he is entered into the game to avoid having to enforce the penalty.

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12 hours ago, S0M0TEITBE said:

I enforce it as soon as I see it.

Enforce it as in impose the illegal sub penalty? I'd rather just tell the OHC he can't do that. Preventive umpiring. No need to let it get to bench restrictions and outs.

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18 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

For Donny7 or anyone else for that matter, would you enforce this to the letter of the law if you caught it yourself? Would you wait for the opposing coach to point it out? Does it depend on the level of ball?

I am just looking to learn. It seems like quite an obscure rule.

The answer to your question is that it depends on what part of the country or possibly what State you are in. As you have read above, many practice 'Preventive Umpiring' when it comes to infractions by a Courtesy Runner (CR). I understand the thought process and reasoning for officiating in this manner, not allowing a bad decision by a coach and therefore avoiding the penalty and drama that may follow. Having been a coach, I like it, but... that is not the way it is handled in my region. So, the answer to your 3 questions for me is; No, Yes, N/A Lower level leagues do not play by NFHS rules in my area.

Before I get off in this too deeply, my best advice is for you to ask your local officials.

I don't know the root answer why it is handled the way it is in my region but I can quote a few Rules and Statements from the NFHS Rule Book and let you form your own conclusions.

Page 64   SUGGESTED SPEED-UP RULES

By State association adoption any, all, or any part of the suggested speed-up rules may be used.

6. The umpire-in chief shall record courtesy runner participation and also announce it to the scorer.

7. A player who violates the courtesy runner rule is considered to be an illegal substitute.  

Page 76    COACHES CODE OF ETHICS

·       The coach shall master the contest rules and teach them to his or her team members.

Page 77    OFFICIALS CODE OF ETHICS

·       Officials shall master both the rules of the game and the mechanics necessary to enforce the rules, and shall exercise authority in an impartial, firm and controlled manner.  

 

As David Rackley would tell it… “So there I was”… standing behind the mound, the coach sent in a courtesy runner for the catcher that had previously run for the pitcher. I said “coach, you can’t do that, he is an illegal sub”. He says “thank you David” and sends in a legal CR. The defensive coach having witnessed our interaction comes out and asks me why I did that. And tells me I am supposed to be neutral and impartial. Tells me the other coach didn’t know the rule and I just cost him an out and not only an out but he could have been out of the inning with the bases loaded.

 

[The above was written as fiction but close to this same scenario happened in a varsity tournament two weekends ago. The coach that came out was a very experienced, successful (won state championship) normally easygoing manager. I was not there, but was told that he wasn’t a happy camper]   

Page 24    SECTION 36   SUBSTITUTIONS

Art. 3… An illegal substitute is:

e. a player who violates the courtesy runner rule.

Normally one of the field umpires is designated to document CR’s and defensive visits. An illegal CR does not often occur, but when it does we document and remain mute. An illegal substitute is a continuing infraction. It does not go away after the next pitch or the next defensive action. I have yet to witness any defensive coach pointing out this infraction... But I don't find anywhere that states he gets a free pass from an official.

 

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The answer to your question is that it depends on what part of the country or possibly what State you are in. As you have read above, many practice 'Preventive Umpiring' when it comes to infractions by a Courtesy Runner (CR). I understand the thought process and reasoning for officiating in this manner, not allowing a bad decision by a coach and therefore avoiding the penalty and drama that may follow. Having been a coach, I like it, but... that is not the way it is handled in my region. So, the answer to your 3 questions for me is; No, Yes, N/A Lower level leagues do not play by NFHS rules in my area.

Before I get off in this too deeply, my best advice is for you to ask your local officials.

I don't know the root answer why it is handled the way it is in my region but I can quote a few Rules and Statements from the NFHS Rule Book and let you form your own conclusions.

Page 64   SUGGESTED SPEED-UP RULES

By State association adoption any, all, or any part of the suggested speed-up rules may be used.

6. The umpire-in chief shall record courtesy runner participation and also announce it to the scorer.

7. A player who violates the courtesy runner rule is considered to be an illegal substitute.  

Page 76    COACHES CODE OF ETHICS

·       The coach shall master the contest rules and teach them to his or her team members.

Page 77    OFFICIALS CODE OF ETHICS

·       Officials shall master both the rules of the game and the mechanics necessary to enforce the rules, and shall exercise authority in an impartial, firm and controlled manner.  

 

As David Rackley would tell it… “So there I was”… standing behind the mound, the coach sent in a courtesy runner for the catcher that had previously run for the pitcher. I said “coach, you can’t do that, he is an illegal sub”. He says “thank you David” and sends in a legal CR. The defensive coach having witnessed our interaction comes out and asks me why I did that. And tells me I am supposed to be neutral and impartial. Tells me the other coach didn’t know the rule and I just cost him an out and not only an out but he could have been out of the inning with the bases loaded.

 

[The above was written as fiction but close to this same scenario happened in a varsity tournament two weekends ago. The coach that came out was a very experienced, successful (won state championship) normally easygoing manager. I was not there, but was told that he wasn’t a happy camper]   

Page 24    SECTION 36   SUBSTITUTIONS

Art. 3… An illegal substitute is:

e. a player who violates the courtesy runner rule.

Normally one of the field umpires is designated to document CR’s and defensive visits. An illegal CR does not often occur, but when it does we document and remain mute. An illegal substitute is a continuing infraction. It does not go away after the next pitch or the next defensive action. I have yet to witness any defensive coach pointing out this infraction... But I don't find anywhere that states he gets a free pass from an official.
 

Where do you live? Because I can think of 100 other scenarios where preventive officiating is used and practiced at all levels of ball.

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Hey guys,

Thanks for all of your replies. I umpire in a rec league where the teams get together on lineups but no lineups are given to the umpire. They do not use CR's. I also coached in this league when my son played. This was the same for his 14U league under Fed rules. They did have a CR rule but it was the more generic last out of the previous inning, I believe. Would need to look it up on their website.

If I ever make the jump to HS ball I will have a lot to learn.

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7 hours ago, Donny7 said:

Normally one of the field umpires is designated to document CR’s and defensive visits. An illegal CR does not often occur, but when it does we document and remain mute. An illegal substitute is a continuing infraction. It does not go away after the next pitch or the next defensive action. I have yet to witness any defensive coach pointing out this infraction... But I don't find anywhere that states he gets a free pass from an official.

I won't speculate about your motivation in posting this. Perhaps you really believe it. Perhaps you're a troll. Perhaps you're a coach who feels aggrieved by an umpire's good game management skills. It doesn't matter; it's all bunk.

The plate umpire handles all substitutions, coach conferences, and CR's. All game notes belong on the lineup card.

This situation is comparable to a messed up substitution in basketball, when a team has 6 players on the court. That's nothing until we put the ball in play, and we don't do that until they figure out that they have six and fix it. We'll hold for a moment, then say, "hey, you've got six, somebody has to go off." That one time in a hundred when none of the 3 officials sees 6 and we make the ball live, the technical foul must be called and the team penalized — they are ultimately responsible for the infraction, but we do what we can to prevent it.

Same for CR's and any other substitution infraction. We prevent problems before they become illegal by refusing to record it. To willfully take an illegal substitution is a "gotcha" call that will prevent an official from moving up. Fairness requires treating both teams the same: I'd refuse an illegal substitution from either team equally. Good game management requires this approach: it is not optional, and it does not depend on the area of the country.

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On March 14, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Richvee said:

Enforce it as in impose the illegal sub penalty? I'd rather just tell the OHC he can't do that. Preventive umpiring. No need to let it get to bench restrictions and outs.

No no no....lol. My backside isn't red yet. I mean tell them that they can't do that and to give me a different runner. 

It was an issue last year in middle school. They would put their fastest player out there to run or run for any position. So it was a point of emphasis this year. 

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1 hour ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Just curious, does your state allow CR?

Kansas does.

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21 hours ago, Donny7 said:

The answer to your question is that it depends on what part of the country or possibly what State you are in. As you have read above, many practice 'Preventive Umpiring' when it comes to infractions by a Courtesy Runner (CR). I understand the thought process and reasoning for officiating in this manner, not allowing a bad decision by a coach and therefore avoiding the penalty and drama that may follow. Having been a coach, I like it, but... that is not the way it is handled in my region. So, the answer to your 3 questions for me is; No, Yes, N/A Lower level leagues do not play by NFHS rules in my area.

Before I get off in this too deeply, my best advice is for you to ask your local officials.

I don't know the root answer why it is handled the way it is in my region but I can quote a few Rules and Statements from the NFHS Rule Book and let you form your own conclusions.

Page 64   SUGGESTED SPEED-UP RULES

By State association adoption any, all, or any part of the suggested speed-up rules may be used.

6. The umpire-in chief shall record courtesy runner participation and also announce it to the scorer.

7. A player who violates the courtesy runner rule is considered to be an illegal substitute.  

Page 76    COACHES CODE OF ETHICS

·       The coach shall master the contest rules and teach them to his or her team members.

Page 77    OFFICIALS CODE OF ETHICS

·       Officials shall master both the rules of the game and the mechanics necessary to enforce the rules, and shall exercise authority in an impartial, firm and controlled manner.  

 

As David Rackley would tell it… “So there I was”… standing behind the mound, the coach sent in a courtesy runner for the catcher that had previously run for the pitcher. I said “coach, you can’t do that, he is an illegal sub”. He says “thank you David” and sends in a legal CR. The defensive coach having witnessed our interaction comes out and asks me why I did that. And tells me I am supposed to be neutral and impartial. Tells me the other coach didn’t know the rule and I just cost him an out and not only an out but he could have been out of the inning with the bases loaded.

 

[The above was written as fiction but close to this same scenario happened in a varsity tournament two weekends ago. The coach that came out was a very experienced, successful (won state championship) normally easygoing manager. I was not there, but was told that he wasn’t a happy camper]   

Page 24    SECTION 36   SUBSTITUTIONS

Art. 3… An illegal substitute is:

e. a player who violates the courtesy runner rule.

Normally one of the field umpires is designated to document CR’s and defensive visits. An illegal CR does not often occur, but when it does we document and remain mute. An illegal substitute is a continuing infraction. It does not go away after the next pitch or the next defensive action. I have yet to witness any defensive coach pointing out this infraction... But I don't find anywhere that states he gets a free pass from an official.

 

Field umps have no responsibility for line up changes or CR documentation. That being said, if you take the change, why remain mute, and wait for a defensive protest. You have violated your strict interp of the rule. The field ump should take the change and then bring it to the attention of the PU who would then call the illegal sub out and restrict him to the dugout. Read the rule. Your region is in my state but we do not do it that way in my region. But if preventative umpiring fails to catch the act we do apply the rule. It's still on the coach. As an aside, once confronted with an illegal CR would you allow a coach to claim a misspeak and make his runner a PR? 

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As you can read in my previous post I stated that I didn’t know why the CR Rule is handled the way it is in my area, and having not seen nor read anything to the contrary, I took it for granted that’s, just the way it is. That’s something I don’t usually get accused of, but I fell off in this one. When I started locally asking why questions and what appropriate action umpires should take, I didn’t receive any answers that satisfied my curiosity. So I did what I always do… What does the Rule Book say?

I couldn’t begin to guess how many times I’ve read through it… and all of the other rule books over the years. So how could I have missed something as important as the proper protocol for handling an illegal substitute. Why out of all of the years of experienced officials I communicated with and those on this thread did someone not quote NFHS 3-1-1, which reads in part;

For discovery of an illegal player (2-36-3) on offense by an umpire or either team, that player shall be called out and restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game.    

You can be assured that I will do my part to see that this inequity is corrected. And just an FYI… there is an adequate amount of 'Preventive Umpiring' in my region, but there is definitely no consistent thinking on the CR Rule.

 

To cleanup some misconceptions. The PRIMARY topic of this thread was the CR then shifted to ILLEGAL SUBSTITUTE CR. I had no concern about any of the fiction or other lacking details of what each official’s responsibilities are. That was just filler to get to the primary meat. Since that garnered so much attention, I would bet ya’ that ya’ll probably do it very similar to the same way we do… which is;

The UIC is responsible for all lineups, substitutions, courtesy runners, defensive and offensive visits. Many of the UIC’s ask a Field Umpire to assist them with CR’s and Defensive visits. As an example when most CR’s enter the game the Field umpire will see/hear the player number before the UIC. In that case he relays it to the UIC who in turn notifies the opposing team and the official scorer. A process which been proven to be a very effective communication, error proofing and game flow method.  

 

I guess I got exactly what I deserve for ASSuming. Even at my age, my goal is to constantly look for ways to improve. Today your feedback has helped me along that path. THANK YOU!   

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As you can read in my previous post I stated that I didn’t know why the CR Rule is handled the way it is in my area, and having not seen nor read anything to the contrary, I took it for granted that’s, just the way it is. That’s something I don’t usually get accused of, but I fell off in this one. When I started locally asking why questions and what appropriate action umpires should take, I didn’t receive any answers that satisfied my curiosity. So I did what I always do… What does the Rule Book say?

I couldn’t begin to guess how many times I’ve read through it… and all of the other rule books over the years. So how could I have missed something as important as the proper protocol for handling an illegal substitute. Why out of all of the years of experienced officials I communicated with and those on this thread did someone not quote NFHS 3-1-1, which reads in part;

For discovery of an illegal player (2-36-3) on offense by an umpire or either team, that player shall be called out and restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game.    

You can be assured that I will do my part to see that this inequity is corrected. And just an FYI… there is an adequate amount of 'Preventive Umpiring' in my region, but there is definitely no consistent thinking on the CR Rule.

 

To cleanup some misconceptions. The PRIMARY topic of this thread was the CR then shifted to ILLEGAL SUBSTITUTE CR. I had no concern about any of the fiction or other lacking details of what each official’s responsibilities are. That was just filler to get to the primary meat. Since that garnered so much attention, I would bet ya’ that ya’ll probably do it very similar to the same way we do… which is;

The UIC is responsible for all lineups, substitutions, courtesy runners, defensive and offensive visits. Many of the UIC’s ask a Field Umpire to assist them with CR’s and Defensive visits. As an example when most CR’s enter the game the Field umpire will see/hear the player number before the UIC. In that case he relays it to the UIC who in turn notifies the opposing team and the official scorer. A process which been proven to be a very effective communication, error proofing and game flow method.  

 

I guess I got exactly what I deserve for ASSuming. Even at my age, my goal is to constantly look for ways to improve. Today your feedback has helped me along that path. THANK YOU!   


What state are you from?

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2 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:


What state are you from?

His profile says he's in the "Longview Texas Umpire Association" so  a good guess would be .... ;)

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His profile says he's in the "Longview Texas Umpire Association" so  a good guess would be ....

I haven't been able to see profile details of people on Tapatalk! Just # of posts and when they became a member :(

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 6:45 AM, Aging_Arbiter said:

he said it's all bunk....

I first joined this site to use it as a conduit to distribute information to other High School Umpires who may not be aware that the new 2017 NFHS RULES BOOK had some rules mistakenly left in after a rule modification. I know I would very much appreciate someone advising me that there was a pitfall ahead before I ran off in it. The first response to that post was negative and sarcastic.

After being a member for a month or so, I have found that the responder to my first post has by far the absolute best advice that I have read on this site. And now he calls my post on this thread “bunk”.

I can tell you that I am not very conversant with social media, I am an official and everything I wrote was as honest and forthcoming as I knew how to state it and give rule book quotes and examples of why I thought it may be the way it was in my region.

Instead of all of the criticism, it would have been much simpler to quote 3-1-1, and I’m convinced… but unfortunately that didn’t happen.

I want to give you some food for thought. Please Don’t forget the reason this site was established. There are many experienced officials on here with a lot of wise advice to offer everyone from the Guest novice umpire to the old timer like me. They (nor I) wouldn’t be visiting this site if we knew it all. They post on here for some honest give and take, NOT to get criticized. I don’t know it all, and I love it when I learn something new about the game.

Whether you choose to believe it or not I am an Umpire. I am a 63 year old retiree who loves the game with a passion. My finances are such that I don’t do it for the money. I do it for my health and the love of the game. My safe place is on a baseball field.

I don’t have to stay here and be demeaned and criticized. I can choose not to. I do think it would be a travesty for those many future novices needing direction to get on here and be displeased with what they read, not stay to read what they may really need.           :(

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2 hours ago, Donny7 said:

I know I would very much appreciate someone advising me that there was a pitfall ahead before I ran off in it. The first response to that post was negative and sarcastic.

I have read every post on this site since I joined a couple of years ago*. I've seen lots of new and experienced umpires join here, ask and answer questions, ask and give advice. Most are handled quite gently when they first post, and then more bluntly after the regulars here "get to know them". There's a lot of sarcasm, but a lot of learning, too. Your initial post had the connotation of "the sky is falling". And those issues had already been discussed here. You also posted this in the "Ask the Umpire" forum, which is frequently used as a drive-by for those who don't want to register for an account - in fact, that's its purpose, to be used to ask a question that needs an answer from someone knowledgeable about the subject, rather than a "Did you know ...". (In fact, if I had thought about it at the time, I would have answered "Yes. Lock this question up.") But that's why you got a sarcastic response.

2 hours ago, Donny7 said:

And now he calls my post on this thread “bunk”.

So now you post something that is the polar opposite of something we are all taught. He didn't say "shut up and go away" - he said that isn't taught anywhere else (a.k.a. "bunk"), and gave a, quite frankly, excellent analogy to another sport.

You're an official, grow some thicker skin, and realize that criticism is not the same as personally demeaning. I hope you stick around and learn as much as I have from the good folks on this site.

 

*to be pedantic, except the Cooperstown Dream Park forum, because that doesn't apply to me

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On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 5:29 PM, kylehutson said:

I have read every post on this site since I joined a couple of years ago*. I've seen lots of new and experienced umpires join here, ask and answer questions, ask and give advice. Most are handled quite gently when they first post, and then more bluntly after the regulars here "get to know them". There's a lot of sarcasm, but a lot of learning, too. Your initial post had the connotation of "the sky is falling". And those issues had already been discussed here. You also posted this in the "Ask the Umpire" forum, which is frequently used as a drive-by for those who don't want to register for an account - in fact, that's its purpose, to be used to ask a question that needs an answer from someone knowledgeable about the subject, rather than a "Did you know ...". (In fact, if I had thought about it at the time, I would have answered "Yes. Lock this question up.") But that's why you got a sarcastic response.

So now you post something that is the polar opposite of something we are all taught. He didn't say "shut up and go away" - he said that isn't taught anywhere else (a.k.a. "bunk"), and gave a, quite frankly, excellent analogy to another sport.

You're an official, grow some thicker skin, and realize that criticism is not the same as personally demeaning. I hope you stick around and learn as much as I have from the good folks on this site.

 

*to be pedantic, except the Cooperstown Dream Park forum, because that doesn't apply to me

 

I think you may have misunderstood or possibly missed my post from 3-16-17. I have extremely thick skin as I believe anyone who reads that post would agree. My sincere closing statement was I guess I got exactly what I deserve for ASSuming. Even at my age, my goal is to constantly look for ways to improve. Today your feedback has helped me along that path. THANK YOU!”   

The next post you responded to from 3-17-17, was NOT written for me personally, it was to ask you wise and knowledgeable officials to please consider the younger, less experienced, thinner skinned umpires who may be reading responses to not send them the wrong message. We have a high turnover rate of younger umpires mostly due to abuse by fans and coaches. They don’t need to see it here, brother on brother and become even more disillusioned. 

If you were asked the question:

Do you believe this Web Site was created for: (A) A Select Few? or (B) The more readers the more informed quality officials?

I post something on ‘Ask the Umpire’ and just because you and a select few have already discussed it… in your words “Lock this question up, that’s why it got a sarcastic response”. So Nobody else needs to see it? I believe I unknowingly put it right where it needed to be. Where it would get the most exposure and in your words for the “drive-bys” to see it… And it was purposefully written to get their attention, NOT the persons that already knew it. It merited neither locking up nor sarcasm.  

Your next defense is I posted the polar opposite of what WE were all taught. Obviously, there were a lot of umpires that were trained that way. But if you think that your WE is 100%, you are living fantasy land. I think and hope that there were many like me that learned a very valuable lesson from this thread and thank all of you again, that contributed to my learning experience. 

I do know the difference between constructive criticism and demeaning. We can agree to disagree about that, and that’s okay. The definition of “bunk” is; absurd, ridiculous, nonsense. That’s actually better than what I thought it was… The brown stuff that comes out of a bulls butt… :)

I can sit back and smile about it just like the beerguy . I have leather skin… When you gentlemen put out wise counsel please consider those that may not.  

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