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Gfoley4

U2 in 4 man

34 posts in this topic

Was watching Cubs-A's today and noticed that U2 (with R1 or R2, he went back to deep B with both R2/R3) would set up on the back edge of the infield, about where one would line up in "C" position on closed 60' bases. Obviously, none of us are MLB umpires, but has anyone seen this used in a game before?

see pictures: https://cl.ly/062P471A2P3T https://cl.ly/1X2u0f2B0k0s

 

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It might be connected with the wedge theory of umpiring. For a few years this has been taught as a plate mechanic, but it is also being taught by certain associations at the college level for base work as well.

I know for a fact that the COG is teaching it in its three and four man clinics

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1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

It might be connected with the wedge theory of umpiring. For a few years this has been taught as a plate mechanic, but it is also being taught by certain associations at the college level for base work as well.

I know for a fact that the COG is teaching it in its three and four man clinics

He is talking about U2 starting on the outside with R1 only. I don't know of any college mechanics that teach to take steal plays at second base from the outside. 

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13 minutes ago, zm1283 said:

He is talking about U2 starting on the outside with R1 only. I don't know of any college mechanics that teach to take steal plays at second base from the outside. 

I think you mis read @Kevin_K post. Kevin didn't say COG is teaching setting up behind the runners, just that they are teaching the use of the wedge on the bases as much as possible. Maybe MLB guys are experimenting with the new starting position to be in position to make tag calls on steals from behind the bag to get that wedge look at the play.

 

2 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

It might be connected with the wedge theory of umpiring. For a few years this has been taught as a plate mechanic, but it is also being taught by certain associations at the college level for base work as well.

I know for a fact that the COG is teaching it in its three and four man clinics

.

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1 minute ago, Richvee said:

I think you mis read @Kevin_K post. Kevin didn't say COG is teaching setting up behind the runners, just that they are teaching the use of the wedge on the bases as much as possible. Maybe MLB guys are experimenting with the new starting position to be in position to make tag calls on steals from behind the bag to get that wedge look at the play.

 

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I understood Kevin's post. My point is that starting position of U2 doesn't really have anything to do with taking plays from the outside in 3 or 4-man and applying the wedge concept. I mean I guess you would end up doing that if you had a steal with R1 starting where that umpire is, but the two things aren't directly related in my opinion. 

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3 minutes ago, zm1283 said:

I understood Kevin's post. My point is that starting position of U2 doesn't really have anything to do with taking plays from the outside in 3 or 4-man and applying the wedge concept. I mean I guess you would end up doing that if you had a steal with R1 starting where that umpire is, but the two things aren't directly related in my opinion. 

That's the only reason I could come with as well for starting back there....To get in the wedge for a steal attempt. I have noticed numerous plays this spring where U2 is getting in a spot where the tag plays are in front of them (coming at them as a play at home would).Maybe that's nothing new and I'm just noticing it this year, but it does seem to me umpires are trying to get in that wedge for tag plays on all bases. 

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He's got a lot of moving to do no matter what angle he takes at 2B on a steal. He does avoid ump INT by being there if that's his concern. He can call the out at 2B on  DP with some movement to the open glove side. I don't think they want him going out. Beats me?

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Do we know who the umpire is? Some international baseball umpires use, let's say, non-standard mechanics.

This might be an experimental mechanic that they're testing in pre-season.

AFAIK, it's not in any of the standard manuals.

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7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

He's got a lot of moving to do no matter what angle he takes at 2B on a steal. He does avoid ump INT by being there if that's his concern. He can call the out at 2B on  DP with some movement to the open glove side. I don't think they want him going out. Beats me?

How would he be in danger of umpire interference anyway?

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

How would he be in danger of umpire interference anyway?

If he was hit by a batted ball in deep B it would normally be ump INT?

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11 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If he was hit by a batted ball in deep B it would normally be ump INT?

Ahh...I was thinking on steals.

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1 hour ago, maven said:

Do we know who the umpire is? Some international baseball umpires use, let's say, non-standard mechanics.

This might be an experimental mechanic that they're testing in pre-season.

AFAIK, it's not in any of the standard manuals.

I believe it was Mike Winters. There wasn't any steals or really any plays where a call at second would be made when I was watching. But he did seem to move in towards home plate a few steps when it looked like the ball might get away from the catcher for a second. Also, there was a fly ball into the LCF gap and he did stay in and the 3B umpire went out - ended up being an automatic double

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What is old is new again. 

Go back and watch some world series games (on youtube for instance) from the 1970's and 1960's, U2 often set up on the "outside" (especially AL umpires).

Here's a good example (in the very first seconds of the video, look where Brinkman is standing):

 

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33 minutes ago, lawump said:

Here's a good example (in the very first seconds of the video, look where Brinkman is standing):

I dunno about that mechanic: he didn't rule the intentional drop by F6!

If MLB "renews" this mechanic next year, I'll look for it in FED in 2027.

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2 minutes ago, maven said:

I dunno about that mechanic: he didn't rule the intentional drop by F6!

If MLB "renews" this mechanic next year, I'll look for it in FED in 2027.

That soon? :D

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4 hours ago, lawump said:

What is old is new again. 

Go back and watch some world series games (on youtube for instance) from the 1970's and 1960's, U2 often set up on the "outside" (especially AL umpires).

Here's a good example (in the very first seconds of the video, look where Brinkman is standing):

 

not to sidetrack this conversation (or maybe it's already done...), but did the umpires blow it twice on this play? Seems to have been an intentional drop (maybe that rule wasn't on the books then although) and shouldn't the throw hitting Jackson be ruled as "interference by a retired runner" similar to the Victor Martinez play in Oakland last year?

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2 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

not to sidetrack this conversation (or maybe it's already done...), but did the umpires blow it twice on this play? Seems to have been an intentional drop (maybe that rule wasn't on the books then although) and shouldn't the throw hitting Jackson be ruled as "interference by a retired runner" similar to the Victor Martinez play in Oakland last year?

Martinez had abandoned "normal baserunning" Jackson had not. Unless you would perceive some intent on Jackson's part.  

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10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Martinez had abandoned "normal baserunning" Jackson had not. Unless you would perceive some intent on Jackson's part.  

this,...... and part one of your question...It was intentionally dropped by Russell...it was a rule then, (Kubek mentions it briefly at the very end of the clip ). It is obviously a judgment call. Brinkman didn't think it was intentional....I thought it was.... But what I think doesn't really matter here.:D

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According to Brinkman, as told to us students at his umpire school, rules expert Bill Haller (who was working a foul line) told Brinkman between innings later in the game that he thought Brinkman and Pulli got the Jackson "no interference" call correct, but that Brinkman missed the intentional dropped ball.  Brinkman said after talking to Haller he was despondent the rest of the game and that he went into the post-game press conference thinking all the questions were going to be about the intentionally dropped ball, but, of course, they were about Jackson.  He said he felt very comfortable defending the no interference call and that he felt like he was let off the hook when no one asked about the possibility of an intentionally dropped ball.

BTW, did anyone notice that if F6 had just tagged R2 (who was frozen near second base) before stepping on second base, F6 would have had an unassisted double-play and there would have been no need for F6 to throw to F3?

Anyways, a pretty famous play where U2 started on the outside.

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8 hours ago, lawump said:

BTW, did anyone notice that if F6 had just tagged R2 (who was frozen near second base) before stepping on second base, F6 would have had an unassisted double-play and there would have been no need for F6 to throw to F3?

I don't see a tag.

Did anyone notice the balk that negates the whole thing?

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2 hours ago, maven said:

I don't see a tag.

Did anyone notice the balk that negates the whole thing?

Yeah, he didn't tag R2.  If he had tagged R2...this would have been a totally different play.

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11 hours ago, lawump said:

BTW, did anyone notice that if F6 had just tagged R2

 

2 hours ago, maven said:

I don't see a tag.

 

12 minutes ago, lawump said:

Yeah, he didn't tag R2. If he had tagged R2...this would have been a totally different play.

Apparently, I don't see small words like "if" either. :(

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Just turned on the Giants/D-Backs game. Top 2, Nunez steals 2B. U2, Jim Wolf,  positioned behind 2B, takes the steal play from the wedge.

Hopefully MLB will have a video after the game.

 

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Just turned on the Giants/D-Backs game. Top 2, Nunez steals 2B. U2, Jim Wolf,  positioned behind 2B, takes the steal play from the wedge.

Hopefully MLB will have a video after the game.

 

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seems like a pretty good angle, only issue could possibly getting hit by the throw

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Any other reason for starting there other than the steal attempt? Will be interesting to see how many guys are starting back there with R1

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