Time of Pitch?

[Guest John]

Weird Play that is hard to describe: Hard line drive into the gap in the outfield. The right fielder is playing way close to center field for some reason and this hard base hit was towards the right field foul line. The right fielder runs toward the line to go pick up the ball which is now laying on the ground and as he gets to it, he accidentally steps on the edge of the ball and it shoots away from him and becomes lodged in the fence. Would the baserunning award be from the Time of the Pitch here? There were runners on First and second to start this play, so would you put runners at second and third?

[noumpere]

Since the ball was at rest, it's from the time of the "kick."

[beerguy55]

I'm pretty sure this would fall under "bounces or is deflected", as opposed to "thrown". 

So yes, runners and second and third and a run scores.

 

"Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines "

[Richvee]

The key here is did the fielder add the impedes.. If a batted ball is in motion and deflects off the fielder, we've got 2 bases, TOP. If, as your example suggests, and @noumpere has stated,  the ball had stopped, and the fielder's actions caused the ball to go out of play, we have 2 bases time of kick.  

[maven]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm pretty sure this would fall under "bounces or is deflected", as opposed to "thrown". 

Exactly the opposite. "Deflected" is what happened when the ball hit Canseco's head: the force of the batted ball became redirected by contact with the fielder, and that force took the ball out of play. Hence, it was a batted ball that left fair territory in flight, which is a home run.

In the OP, it's the force imparted by the fielder that takes the ball out of play. Although it's a stretch to consider that a "throw," what we need to realize is that a live ball in play has one of only 3 statuses. It is a pitch, a batted ball, or a thrown ball. The ball in the OP is obviously not a pitch, and the batted ball ended when its force diminished to the point where it could not take the ball out of play. When the fielder kicked, batted, or otherwise imparted the force that took the ball out of play, it became a "thrown" ball.

2 bases, TOT.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, maven said:

Exactly the opposite. "Deflected" is what happened when the ball hit Canseco's head: the force of the batted ball became redirected by contact with the fielder, and that force took the ball out of play. Hence, it was a batted ball that left fair territory in flight, which is a home run.

In the OP, it's the force imparted by the fielder that takes the ball out of play. Although it's a stretch to consider that a "throw," what we need to realize is that a live ball in play has one of only 3 statuses. It is a pitch, a batted ball, or a thrown ball. The ball in the OP is obviously not a pitch, and the batted ball ended when its force diminished to the point where it could not take the ball out of play. When the fielder kicked, batted, or otherwise imparted the force that took the ball out of play, it became a "thrown" ball.

2 bases, TOT.

Is it TOT because an outfielder did it? What would it be if F3 booted a grounder and then kicked it into the dugout while retrieving it.

[beerguy55]

10 hours ago, maven said:

Although it's a stretch to consider that a "throw," what we need to realize is that a live ball in play has one of only 3 statuses. It is a pitch, a batted ball, or a thrown ball.

Funny - that was exactly my line of thinking - there are rules for pitched balls, thrown balls, and batted balls...so this has to fall under one of those conditions.

My assumption was a ball could not be "thrown" until it had been possessed - or, at the very least, show some intent to direct the ball to a destination (eg. Paul O'Neill bobbling a ball and then kicking it to the infield).  Though by your answer this has obviously been ruled upon by the powers that be, from a logistical, semantical and physical point of view, I would argue this ball in this scenario is closer to "batted" than "thrown".

So, is the umpire required to judge that the ball was at rest, or that the ball would not been able to go out of play on its own power?

[maven]

13 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

My assumption was a ball could not be "thrown" until it had been possessed - or, at the very least, show some intent to direct the ball to a destination (eg. Paul O'Neill bobbling a ball and then kicking it to the infield).  Though by your answer this has obviously been ruled upon by the powers that be, from a logistical, semantical and physical point of view, I would argue this ball in this scenario is closer to "batted" than "thrown".

The issue, as Richvee points out above, is what mainly imparts the force or impetus that causes the ball to leave the field. In the Canseco case, it's the bat, so that's a batted ball. In the OP, it's the fielder's contact, so that's not a batted ball. 'Thrown ball' becomes something of a catch-all category here: 'batted ball' is more narrowly interpreted because it has direct scoring implications.

This is a judgment call; but as described, the OP cannot possibly be a batted ball, as the force imparted by the bat ended when the ball came to rest.

8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Is it TOT because an outfielder did it? What would it be if F3 booted a grounder and then kicked it into the dugout while retrieving it.

If the umpire ruled that F3 was in the process of making the first play by an infielder, then your play could fall under the exception and the award measured from TOP. That's an interesting scenario: it's clearly the first something by an infielder, but it's also pretty clearly not the usual case that the exception was meant to cover (F6 throwing wild, for instance).

The good news is that this play is vanishingly rare, and when it does happen, TOP and TOT awards probably coincide. If I had to pick a side, I'd probably go with TOP here, reading "first play by an infielder" broadly to include fielding the batted ball.

[noumpere]

54 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

So, is the umpire required to judge that the ball was at rest, or that the ball would not been able to go out of play on its own power?

If the ball had enough momentum to make it out of play on its own, then it's TOP -- even if the fielder changed the direction of the ball.

 

If the ball would have "died" on its own in the field of play, then it's TOT.

 

Note that you get some different rules under different codes for a pitch deflected toward the dugout, and then contacted by F2 (or whoever) -- the above guidance does not always apply.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Similar play from 3-4 years ago.

Runner at 1st.  Wild pitch kicks off F2's gear and rolls toward 3rd base dugout,  Runner takes 2nd standing up.

F2 goes to retrieve ball.  Ball has completely stopped, about 6ft from dugout.

As F2 is approaching the ball, he looks at the runner, looses his footing on the gravel and kicks ball into dugout.

 

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Similar play from 3-4 years ago.

Runner at 1st.  Wild pitch kicks off F2's gear and rolls toward 3rd base dugout,  Runner takes 2nd standing up.

F2 goes to retrieve ball.  Ball has completely stopped, about 6ft from dugout.

As F2 is approaching the ball, he looks at the runner, looses his footing on the gravel and kicks ball into dugout.

 

So let's see if I've figured this game out yet.  Based on the discussion above this is no longer a pitched ball, but is now a "thrown" ball, so R2 scores.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

So let's see if I've figured this game out yet.  Based on the discussion above this is no longer a pitched ball, but is now a "thrown" ball, so R2 scores.

I'm trying to read through the BRD on this topic. From what I can gather, a ball intentionally kicked OOP is different from unintentional in NCAA and OBR. 

 

FED- Intent does not matter. 

If the ball would have gone dead without the deflection, 1 base TOP. 

If F2 gave the ball the impetus to send the ball OOP, 2 bases time of deflection. 

NCAA

If a pitch is intentionally deflected OOP the award is 2 bases, time of deflection. (added impetus or not--doesn't matter)

If unintentional, rolling ball deflected OOP, 2 bases TOP. If it stopped and F2 adds the impetus, 2 bases time of act. 

OBR

Intentional- 2 bases time of act- same as NCAA

unintentional-  would have gone out anyway, 1 base, TOP (same as FED). Fielder adds the impetus, 2 bases TOP. 

 

[noumpere]

I think that's all correct.  I do know it's one of the rare cases where all the codes differ.  And, it's what I meant by my "a pitch is different" post from Sunday morning.

[Stk004]

On 3/13/2017 at 2:43 PM, Richvee said:

I'm trying to read through the BRD on this topic. From what I can gather, a ball intentionally kicked OOP is different from unintentional in NCAA and OBR. 

 

FED- Intent does not matter. 

If the ball would have gone dead without the deflection, 1 base TOP. 

If F2 gave the ball the impetus to send the ball OOP, 2 bases time of deflection. 

NCAA

If a pitch is intentionally deflected OOP the award is 2 bases, time of deflection. (added impetus or not--doesn't matter)

If unintentional, rolling ball deflected OOP, 2 bases TOP. If it stopped and F2 adds the impetus, 2 bases time of act. 

OBR

Intentional- 2 bases time of act- same as NCAA

unintentional-  would have gone out anyway, 1 base, TOP (same as FED). Fielder adds the impetus, 2 bases TOP. 

 

Just to make it clear that this is on a pitched ball, not a batted ball.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

Just to make it clear that this is on a pitched ball, not a batted ball.

correct.