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grayhawk

The Hybrid

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Working the bases on a varsity game and my partner and I had discussed looking out for the hybrid in pitchers' warmups so that we could catch it early.  Sure enough, the visiting pitcher is in the classic hybrid stance so I go to his coach to inform him of this.  Instead of taking the opportunity to correct it, he argues that his pitcher is legal.  First pitch of the game, "Time!  That's an illegal pitch!  Ball 1!"  He goes out to the mound to talk to his pitcher while telling me that I'm wrong.  Funny thing is, this same pitcher was on the mound through 7 innings and never once was in the hybrid again.

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what?? only with runners on would you /should you have an issue :HS 

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6 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

what?? only with runners on would you /should you have an issue :HS 

Jeff, the hybrid is an illegal pitch (ball to the batter, or balk with runners on) and you should absolutely deal with it before you have runners on base.  If you wait until you have an R3 (which would be the only time a pitcher would use the windup with runners) to call this, you are balking in a run which is going to be a HUGE problem since you allowed it up until then.  Also, what if you don't deal with it and the opposing coach waits until it's most advantageous to him to make an issue of it?

Get it in warmups if you can.  If not, then the first pitch of the game is ideal.  I called ball 1 and that batter ended up striking out.  No harm to either team and it never happened again.

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22 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

what?? only with runners on would you /should you have an issue :HS 

If it's very marginal or occasional, maybe - plus it's really hard to see from A unless it's obvious. But I'd tell the coach or send the 1B over to nip it in the bud if I saw it, just like this.

And if the dude doesn't want to listen like this coach did, can't see the gift horse I'm trying to deliver? Nail them by the book, just like @grayhawk did, absolutely. Some men, you just can't reach. They gotta learn the hard way.

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12 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Jeff, the hybrid is an illegal pitch (ball to the batter, or balk with runners on) and you should absolutely deal with it before you have runners on base.  If you wait until you have an R3 (which would be the only time a pitcher would use the windup with runners) to call this, you are balking in a run which is going to be a HUGE problem since you allowed it up until then.  Also, what if you don't deal with it and the opposing coach waits until it's most advantageous to him to make an issue of it?

Get it in warmups if you can.  If not, then the first pitch of the game is ideal.  I called ball 1 and that batter ended up striking out.  No harm to either team and it never happened again.

hybrid cite please, if you can?

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And another thing [stepping on soapbox]....

I'm by no means a FED basher, but I wish to hell they'd AT THE LEAST redefine this issue, and it could be done in a way that would not only eliminate these kind of harmless molehills but also actually simplify enforcement.

Just reinforce that the definition (as it's currently written!) of the set is when the pivot foot is in complete and full contact with the pitching plate. ANYTHING ELSE is by definition a windup. It makes the whole hybrid issue go away, since it has to be a windup by exclusion since it doesn't meet the requirements of the set. Keep the no-pickoffs from the windup if you wish - since it's not a set, we're fine.

I just think that instead of defining two positions and dealing with this grey area EVERY FREAKIN' YEAR, just define one - the set. Anything else not a set is....not a set.

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6 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

hybrid cite please, if you can?

As with all violations of 6.1, the penalty is a ball if no runner is on base.

 

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk.

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2 minutes ago, scrounge said:

As with all violations of 6.1, the penalty is a ball if no runner is on base.

 

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk.

I just breezed through that and didn't see the word "hybrid"

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22 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Get it in warmups if you can.  If not, then the first pitch of the game is ideal.  I called ball 1 and that batter ended up striking out.  No harm to either team and it never happened again.

This is exactly what we teach.

The pitch becomes illegal at the time of the pitch, which is first motion (often a rocker step). That's when we'd kill it and make the award. Until the time of the pitch, F1 has the opportunity to fix his stance.

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1 minute ago, Thunderheads said:

I just breezed through that and didn't see the word "hybrid"

The pitch is illegal because it was not executed from a legal stance. The hybrid is just one way to fail to have a legal stance: another would be the crow hop. But you won't see "crop hop" in there either.

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12 minutes ago, scrounge said:

ANYTHING ELSE is by definition a windup. It makes the whole hybrid issue go away, since it has to be a windup by exclusion since it doesn't meet the requirements of the set. Keep the no-pickoffs from the windup if you wish - since it's not a set, we're fine

The problem with this approach is that not everything else is the windup. There are infinitely many illegal pitching positions that fail to satisfy the requirements of either the windup or the set — and most of them would look utterly bizarre, so you wouldn't see it and think, "well that's a windup, but it's weird."

Frankly, I don't get why pitchers don't just do it right. I get that pitching is a comfort thing, but if you learn to do it right when you're 10, you'll be comfortable with those positions when you're 17.

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Thanks Maven ...understood and I assume that was the answer (at work multi-tasking) .... however .....

Although, technically ....(by FED definition) the windup hybrid is illegal .....   what advantage does this give to F1? :HS 

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5 minutes ago, maven said:

The problem with this approach is that not everything else is the windup. There are infinitely many illegal pitching positions that fail to satisfy the requirements of either the windup or the set — and most of them would look utterly bizarre, so you wouldn't see it and think, "well that's a windup, but it's weird."

Frankly, I don't get why pitchers don't just do it right. I get that pitching is a comfort thing, but if you learn to do it right when you're 10, you'll be comfortable with those positions when you're 17.

I suppose, but as far as feet position goes, it seems easier to have a single definition for set, then anything else (in relations to feet position) would be a windup - with all its requirements and lack of ability to throw to a base. Now, we have set, windup, and middle ground. This would eliminate the middle ground. I'm just talking feet position requirements.

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5 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Although, technically ....(by FED definition) the windup hybrid is illegal .....   what advantage does this give to F1? :HS 

The hybrid confers a huge advantage with runners on. Because it's set-ish, F1 can step and throw to a base from it. Because it's windup-ish, he can use a rocker step without the runner knowing he can go on first motion. And a windup generally yields a more consistent pitch than the set, for most pitchers.

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2 minutes ago, maven said:

The hybrid confers a huge advantage with runners on. Because it's set-ish, F1 can step and throw to a base from it. Because it's windup-ish, he can use a rocker step without the runner knowing he can go on first motion. And a windup generally yields a more consistent pitch than the set, for most pitchers.

that's my point ....there's no advantage in the windup ...no runners

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Just now, Thunderheads said:

that's my point ....there's no advantage in the windup ...no runners

Do you suppose that FED would make a position legal or not depending on runners? Once illegal, always illegal.

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Thanks Maven ...understood and I assume that was the answer (at work multi-tasking) .... however .....
Although, technically ....(by FED definition) the windup hybrid is illegal .....   what advantage does this give to F1? :HS 


With no runners, there's obviously no advantage. But Fed wants there to be a clear difference between the windup and set. As I said earlier, how can you justify calling a balk with R3 when you let it slide until that point?

And it's not like this is some new, obscure rule. It's been this way for years and has been a POE as well.
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3 minutes ago, maven said:

Do you suppose that FED would make a position legal or not depending on runners? Once illegal, always illegal.

I'm not supposing anything when it comes to FED.  I'm just thinking through this, and it's being confirmed ....this has NO advantage to a F1 with no runners

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4 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

 


With no runners, there's obviously no advantage. But Fed wants there to be a clear difference between the windup and set. As I said earlier, how can you justify calling a balk with R3 when you let it slide until that point?

And it's not like this is some new, obscure rule. It's been this way for years and has been a POE as well.

 

It's not  POE this year, and I know it's been around a while.  The discussion we had at camp last month emphasized the set position.  And what do you mean, let it slide??  You're talking about 2 different situations.  Runners on .......NO runners on .......

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It's not  POE this year, and I know it's been around a while.  The discussion we had at camp last month emphasized the set position.  And what do you mean, let it slide??  You're talking about 2 different situations.  Runners on .......NO runners on .......


Let it slide as in it's illegal whether there are runners or not. So you watched this pitcher throw X number of pitches from an illegal position and did nothing. And now with R3, you balk in a run. The defense is going to feel ambushed and rightfully so.

We have teams come into SoCal from all over the country and the hybrid is often an issue. Now I know why. I recommend that you get with the instructional leadership in your association and have them rethink their stance on this because it's in direct opposition to how NFHS wants it called.
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5 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

We have teams come into SoCal from all over the country and the hybrid is often an issue. Now I know why. I recommend that you get with the instructional leadership in your association and have them rethink their stance on this because it's in direct opposition to how NFHS wants it called.

Ohio wants it called this way as well, and we're somewhat closer than CA to MI.

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6 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

 


Let it slide as in it's illegal whether there are runners or not. So you watched this pitcher throw X number of pitches from an illegal position and did nothing. And now with R3, you balk in a run. The defense is going to feel ambushed and rightfully so.

We have teams come into SoCal from all over the country and the hybrid is often an issue. Now I know why. I recommend that you get with the instructional leadership in your association and have them rethink their stance on this because it's in direct opposition to how NFHS wants it called.

 

Ok, just hang on a minute .....geeeeez ........

So, F1 with no one on base is in a windup-hybrid.....ok.    Then with runners on he assumes that same position?  His first move would be a balk at that point.

You're recommending I get w/ instructional leadership of my association?   Easy there big fella, ...not sure we're trying to cure cancer here either ;) 

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For the record, this is the type of CIVIL, educational discussion that sets this site apart from any other umpiring forum out there.

'Twas a great day when I found this site.

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16 minutes ago, conbo61 said:

From the 2014 NFHS Powerpoint

Hybrid.pdf

A lot of pitchers like the stance in the third play pic on the left. It's less motion to initiate their delivery. It becomes legal when they move the heal of the non pivot foot back in line with the front of the rubber. It looks like a hybrid but complies with the rule. No one would confuse it as a set position.

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