Jump to content
grayhawk

The Hybrid

Recommended Posts

Just now, Jimurray said:

A lot of pitchers like the stance in the third play pic on the left. It's less motion to initiate their delivery. It becomes legal when they move the heal of the non pivot foot back in line with the front of the rubber. It looks like a hybrid but complies with the rule. No one would confuse it as a set position.

We had this come up during our pre-season workouts with our local high school.  There were several pitchers that used the "legal" hybrid and there was some initial confusion, but after some research and deliberation, all of our guys were on the same page.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, conbo61 said:

We had this come up during our pre-season workouts with our local high school.  There were several pitchers that used the "legal" hybrid and there was some initial confusion, but after some research and deliberation, all of our guys were on the same page.

We had one guy who thought the guide showed a requirement to have the feet perpendicular to the rubber in the windup:huh:. That was corrected.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This could also look 'hybrid' but is legal in FED - it has to do with the foot (feet) position and the line across the front of the rubber.

 

LEGALfront2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This discussion is exactly what I was referring to when I started the "Getting On the Same Page" post on 2/23, and agreeing with @conbo61, it is an excellent one! That said, there has to be consistent enforcement for coaches and players to realize they can't 'push the envelope' and get away with it. 

I'll be the first to admit, when the majority of umpires in particular locale are NOT calling something like this, it makes one think twice before he/she does, and perhaps even look for a reason not to call it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

 

So, F1 with no one on base is in a windup-hybrid.....ok.

No.  Not okay.  And that's the point.  It's illegal whether there are runners or not, even if no advantage is gained.  Fed thought this important enough to make it a POE.  While it's not a POE THIS year, the expectation is that umpires will continue to enforce it in following years as well.

I have enforced this in warmups numerous times.  Every other time I have done this, the coach takes my cue to fix it and many times has thanked me for notifying them before a penalty can be enforced.  Why this coach chose to challenge me on it instead, I will never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To @grayhawk's earlier point, nip this when it is NOT important to the outcome of the game and you will save yourself a whole ration of grief later.  Consistency does not just apply to your strike zone.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

No.  Not okay.  And that's the point.  It's illegal whether there are runners or not, even if no advantage is gained.  Fed thought this important enough to make it a POE.  While it's not a POE THIS year, the expectation is that umpires will continue to enforce it in following years as well.

I have enforced this in warmups numerous times.  Every other time I have done this, the coach takes my cue to fix it and many times has thanked me for notifying them before a penalty can be enforced.  Why this coach chose to challenge me on it instead, I will never know.

I'm establishing a situation here ...so by saying OK, I'm simply "setting the scenario up".   I'm also aware it was a POE a couple years ago, and also that just because it's not a POE this year doesn't mean it's not supposed to be paid attention to.  However, Michigan is viewing the hybrid set up WITH RUNNERS on base as the set, therefore, F1 must come to a stop.  

I too if noticed would say something in warm ups to ensure he doesn't go to hybrid in the set position, and if so, comes to a stop, or starts hands separated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Thunderheads said:

I'm establishing a situation here ...so by saying OK, I'm simply "setting the scenario up".   I'm also aware it was a POE a couple years ago, and also that just because it's not a POE this year doesn't mean it's not supposed to be paid attention to.  However, Michigan is viewing the hybrid set up WITH RUNNERS on base as the set, therefore, F1 must come to a stop.  

I too if noticed would say something in warm ups to ensure he doesn't go to hybrid in the set position, and if so, comes to a stop, or starts hands separated.

Understood on establishing the situation - I misinterpreted your meaning there.

I have no idea why or how Michigan is viewing the hybrid (in it's classic sense) as the set position.  In order to be the set, the pivot foot is required to be fully in contact with and parallel to the rubber.  If the pitcher's pivot foot is perpendicular to the rubber (as was the case in my game), then there is no way you could say the pitcher is in the set.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Understood on establishing the situation - I misinterpreted your meaning there.

I have no idea why or how Michigan is viewing the hybrid (in it's classic sense) as the set position.  In order to be the set, the pivot foot is required to be fully in contact with and parallel to the rubber.  If the pitcher's pivot foot is perpendicular to the rubber (as was the case in my game), then there is no way you could say the pitcher is in the set.

Exactly.  If he utilizes this position with runners on he must come to a set-stop.  

He's not 'technically' in the wind-up either ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Thunderheads said:

Exactly.  If he utilizes this position with runners on he must come to a set-stop.  

He's not 'technically' in the wind-up either ;) 

Coming to a set is irrelevant.  The feet determine which pitching position he is in.  Since he's using neither the windup nor the set, it doesn't matter what he does with his hands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

If he utilizes this position with runners on he must come to a set-stop.

I think the issue is... a runner seeing the pitcher in said position thinks the pitcher is in the windup... and takes off on first move. Then the pitcher comes set, steps off or makes a move, and picks the runner off. So coming set doesn't right the inequity of the initial position. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

A lot of pitchers like the stance in the third play pic on the left. It's less motion to initiate their delivery. It becomes legal when they move the heal of the non pivot foot back in line with the front of the rubber. It looks like a hybrid but complies with the rule. No one would confuse it as a set position.

Which if the pitcher did what you describe would make it pic #2 and as you note a legal wind up position not confused with a set position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

Which if the pitcher did what you describe would make it pic #2 and as you note a legal wind up position not confused with a set position.

I would think it would make it more like @maineump's pic with the pitcher's chest angled to one side of the plate. That angled stance with the feet staggered is a fairly common stance in OBR and NCAA. If you move the @maineump pitcher forward six inches you would now have an illegal stance in FED but in OBR and NCAA we would have a legal windup stance and with a normal pitcher no one would be confused about whether he was going to wind up or not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I would think it would make it more like @maineump's pic with the pitcher's chest angled to one side of the plate. That angled stance with the feet staggered is a fairly common stance in OBR and NCAA. If you move the @maineump pitcher forward six inches you would now have an illegal stance in FED but in OBR and NCAA we would have a legal windup stance and with a normal pitcher no one would be confused about whether he was going to wind up or not. 

For me to really see what he is doing, it really has a lot to do with the pivot foot, and how it is in contact with the rubber (the angle). In FED, his non-pivot foot needs to also be through that imaginary line through the front of the rubber.

The shoulder can also give you a clue - in the SET, he will come set with his shoulder pointed towards the hitter, in the WIND-UP, his shoulders will be more square to the hitter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I corrected another kid last night. He was in the hybrid stance for his wind-up. Once a runner reached third I called the DHC out and told him we were trying to clean this up. I gathered that the kid had been told previously from what the coach told the kid. After the game my partner who is also an experienced umpire said he probably wouldn't have bothered with it since we knew he intended to wind-up.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, KenBAZ said:

he probably wouldn't have bothered with it since we knew he intended to wind-up.

Does he also call safe runners out because the defense intended to retire them?

Hm, now that I think about it, that could really improve pace of play...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, KenBAZ said:

he probably wouldn't have bothered with it since we knew he intended to wind-up.
 

There is perhaps no slipperier slope than making calls (or not) based on what we interpret the intent of a player to be. Especially with something like where it isn't a judgement call -- the pitcher's feet are factually in the proper position or they're not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

There is perhaps no slipperier slope than making calls (or not) based on what we interpret the intent of a player to be. Especially with something like where it isn't a judgement call -- the pitcher's feet are factually in the proper position or they're not.

So how factual do you want to be? The angled pitcher's pivot foot is solidly on the rubber, heal 4 or 5 inches behind the front line. The  free foot is in front of the pitcher's pivot by about 4 or 5 inches and may or may not be on the line extended from the front of the rubber and you and your partner don't have an angle to tell if the pitcher's free foot heal might be a quarter inch in front of the afformentioned line. But the game sit and common sense will tell you, I hope that this pitcher will wind up, being that his set is a different presentation on the mound. FED needs to require a front rubber line to be chalked to assuage all you guys that are wrapped around a non existent axle. Can you picture a pitcher taking the rubber and he and both umpires are looking down at every engage to check foot position. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

So how factual do you want to be?

There aren't degrees of factuality. Something either is or it isn't when it comes to foot position. If I can't tell what it is, that doesn't change the facts, but it determines whether or not I can make a call. I can't call what I can't see, and since it can be very difficult -- if not impossible -- to see the pitcher's feet to the degree required to make some of these calls, there will be times when I simply can't make the call if F1's feet are slightly incorrect.

This same principle is true of many other types of calls in which something happens that we couldn't see.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, spotting and calling out a hybrid stance is similar to FED's "entire" pivot foot directly in front of the rubber in the set.....If a toe or heel is off the rubber, I can't tell. Now if only the toe or heel of his pivot foot is within the edges of the rubber in a set, and the rest of the foot is off the edge, it's time to say something. (Poor mound conditions notwithstanding)

Similar with the hybrid...If the free foot heel close to that front line extended, I can't tell, and I'm not picking that nit...but, for example, if he's got the heel of his pivot foot just touching the front edge of the rubber, and the free foot is obviously more forward than his pivot foot, that's clearly the hybrid and it's time to do something about it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/10/2017 at 9:36 PM, Jimurray said:

So how factual do you want to be? The angled pitcher's pivot foot is solidly on the rubber, heal 4 or 5 inches behind the front line. The  free foot is in front of the pitcher's pivot by about 4 or 5 inches and may or may not be on the line extended from the front of the rubber and you and your partner don't have an angle to tell if the pitcher's free foot heal might be a quarter inch in front of the afformentioned line. But the game sit and common sense will tell you, I hope that this pitcher will wind up, being that his set is a different presentation on the mound. FED needs to require a front rubber line to be chalked to assuage all you guys that are wrapped around a non existent axle. Can you picture a pitcher taking the rubber and he and both umpires are looking down at every engage to check foot position. 

@Jimurray I get where you are going but let's put this into a real game scenario... Your example to me would be in the leave it alone category since I am not walking out to the mound with a tape measure and I cannot defiantly tell the pitcher is not properly engaged. 

Like porn you know they Hybrid when you see it. If the pitcher is standing on top of the rubber with his pivot foot and his free is an inch in front of the imaginary line then I would hazard a guess all of us are good with it since there is little chance we are going to see that at game speed... now if F1 is in the Hybrid and his free foot is extended a foot out then it is obvious and time to speak up. Runner on or not this is the time to address the matter; end the problem before it is a problem... Now if F1 has not done this before and suddenly goes to this stance with runners on? Now you get to umpire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can "almost always" tell when F1 is in the hybrid wind-up versus the set. I say almost always because I am aware that F1 could break ii off in my arse, if he throws and picks off a runner from it and I either allow the throw or balk him. DHC argues that his foot was slightly more in front of the rubber and he was in the set position (legal throw). OHC argues that he was in the wind-up stance that I've allowed the entire game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×