Two runners on same bag after failing to tag up

[Guest Jon]

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, fly ball is caught and 3rd base runner goes without tagging up, steps on home plate and retreats back to 3rd base where the 2nd base runner has tagged up and is now standing on 3rd base.  My opinion is that the fielder would have to tag the 2nd base runner even though she is on third, then either tag the 3rd base runner or the bag in that sequence to make a double play?  If the fielder tags the 3rd base runner or the bag before tagging the 2nd base runner (who is on 3rd) only the 3rd base runner would be out...is that correct?  Everyone in the stands for the fielding team was calling for a double play automatically.  Any thoughts?

[BretMan]

I will respectfully disagree with (part of) the above answer. 

The runner who touched home and went back to third "legally" acquired that base. Runners are allowed to correct baserunning mistakes (not tagging up) and this one did. And once the runner made it safely back to third, the baserunning mistake has been corrected and an appeal is no longer available.

Now we have two runners on a base.

1) There are no "automatic" outs to be had here. The defense must play upon the runner to get an out.

2) There is no double play available in this situation.

3) When two runners occupy the same base...if the lead runner is forced, then the lead runner may be tagged for an out. If the lead runner is not forced, then the trailing runner may be tagged for an out.

4) Since no force play is involved here, the order in which the runners or the base are tagged doesn't matter. When there is a forced runner involved, then the order of who/what is tagged can matter as it may remove the force play for one of the runners. But we don't need to worry about that here.

On this play, I have the trailing runner in jeopardy of being tagged out, while the lead runner is not.

 

[ElkOil]

I assume this is softball, since the players are female?  The runner standing on 3B is there legally since she tagged up and the other runner acquired home. Because she rightfully occupies 3B, nobody else can. The runner who didn't tag up could be put out on appeal, but cannot re-acquire 3B since it's already legally acquired by the other runner. You can't get a double play in this scenario.

Softball rules may be different, however.

 

[maven]

In this situation (no force as the batter has been retired):

• A single runner on a base may not be tagged for an out (is safe when tagged).
• When two runners on a base are tagged in this situation, the trailing runner is out.
• Any runner stepping off a base during a live ball may be tagged for an out.

Mechanically, the covering umpire needs to rule carefully and clearly on this confusing situation. Take a step in toward the players, and if we rule someone out point to the player who is out, announce the number if possible, and say "Number 5, he's out!" If two runners have been tagged and one is safe, we should also rule on that tag: like any tag or tag attempt, an attempted play should have a signal and like close plays also a verbal call.

[noumpere]

Let em add to the above that R3 needs to retouch home on the way back (edit:  assuming she passed home plate ).  If not s/he is subject to being out on appeal.  So, the order of the tags / appeals could matter as to whether both runners are aout (tag R2 first -- R2 is out; then appeal R3 and R3 is out)

[beerguy55]

There's no difference between softball and baseball here.

There are no automatic outs here, provided R2 has not passed R3. (though softball - at least minor softball - does allow verbal appeals, that is only after the play is dead, and even those aren't "automatic" - the defense still has to "do" something)

Question - if R2 ends up on the home plate side of the bag (but never comes off) and R3 ends up on the second base side of the bag (but never comes off), has R2 passed R3?

 

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

Let em add to the above that R3 needs to retouch home on the way back (edit:  assuming she passed home plate ).  If not s/he is subject to being out on appeal.  So, the order of the tags / appeals could matter as to whether both runners are aout (tag R2 first -- R2 is out; then appeal R3 and R3 is out)

Yeah, that was my initial thought - this, I think, would be the only way a double play scenario could exist with both runners occupying the bag  (extracurricular activity and shenanigans aside).

[maven]

2 hours ago, ElkOil said:

In this scenario, however, since the runner on 3B reached home, the trailing runner then legally acquired 3B, thus there is no opportunity for the lead runner to correct her mistake.

That's not right, LC, at least for baseball (I make no claims about softball). A trailing runner occupying 3B is not one of the conditions under which R3 may not legally retouch (those are things like a following runner scoring and some situations where the ball becomes dead). R3 may still legally retouch in this situation, even after having touched HP.

You might be misreading a rule like FED 8-2-8: "A runner acquires the right to the proper unoccupied base if he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to this base until he is put out, or until he legally touches the next base while it is unoccupied or until a following runner is forced (2-24-1) to advance to the base he has occupied."

When R3 retreats, touching HP on the way back in order to retouch 3B, R3's run "unscores" and that "reinstates" his right to 3B. That's why 8-2-8a has this provision: "If two runners are on the same base, at the same time and both are tagged, the following runner is declared out." If R3 had no right to 3B in virtue of touching HP, there would need to be an exception to this provision. There is none.

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Question - if R2 ends up on the home plate side of the bag (but never comes off) and R3 ends up on the second base side of the bag (but never comes off), has R2 passed R3?

No.

[Ump29]

Why are you all assuming softball ? Just because a mention of second base runner as she ? In my area girls play baseball.

[BretMan]

6 hours ago, ElkOil said:

My understanding is that a trailing runner is in jeopardy if the lead runner hasn't acquired the next base.

Upon which rule are you basing your understanding?

I'd say that when the lead runner retreated he "unaquired" the next base- then reaquired the previous one!

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, Ump29 said:

Why are you all assuming softball ? Just because a mention of second base runner as she ? In my area girls play baseball.

On the contrary -- many are giving baseball answers.  And, overall, more "shes" play softball than baseball.

[beerguy55]

On 3/4/2017 at 8:31 PM, Ump29 said:

Why are you all assuming softball ? Just because a mention of second base runner as she ? In my area girls play baseball.

We've had this conversation before.  Roughly 90-95% (conservatively speaking) of female athletes who play a game with a bat, glove and ball are playing softball, not baseball. It's just a simple matter of playing the odds. 

[ElkOil]

On 3/4/2017 at 5:10 PM, maven said:

When R3 retreats, touching HP on the way back in order to retouch 3B, R3's run "unscores" and that "reinstates" his right to 3B. That's why 8-2-8a has this provision: "If two runners are on the same base, at the same time and both are tagged, the following runner is declared out." If R3 had no right to 3B in virtue of touching HP, there would need to be an exception to this provision. There is none.

Let me preface by saying I believe everything you have said in your entire life.

I thought I'd bring this topic up at my association meeting, and our interpreter said that "you can't unscore a run." But I do know that even after crossing the plate, a runner has the opportunity to correct a mistake. So is it correct to say that any time a runner retouches home when retreating, the run he just scored comes off the board (except during a time play when the third out occurs after the run)?

[beerguy55]

16 hours ago, ElkOil said:

Let me preface by saying I believe everything you have said in your entire life.

I thought I'd bring this topic up at my association meeting, and our interpreter said that "you can't unscore a run." But I do know that even after crossing the plate, a runner has the opportunity to correct a mistake. So is it correct to say that any time a runner retouches home when retreating, the run he just scored comes off the board (except during a time play when the third out occurs after the run)?

Well the run doesn't go on the board until the play is over - the score keepers aren't that fast.

What if you were to ask "Can a runner unacquire home base?"

I'm suspecting your interpreter is playing on some semantics.  I think maven was being illustrative, I think your interpreter is being literal.  Or he's just plain wrong.

Technically speaking, I'm not sure if the run is counted immediately, or not until the runner enters the dugout, or has clearly shown he is no longer interested in returning to any bases, or even not until the play is over - I don't know if there's a differentiation between "acquiring home base" and "scoring" in the practical element of game management.  

I ask this because in OBR, in the score keeping section, it says a home run is when "the batter touches all four bases AND scores" (emphasis mine)   This suggests to me there is a differentiation between touching home base and scoring. 

It's a subtle difference in interpretation, but it could explain why he could believe an offense can't "unscore" a run. If a run doesn't count until the runner leaves the field, or until the play is over, then it can't be unscored, because the runner can no longer try to correct any errors at that point.

There are certainly times when touching home plate doesn't immediately score a run - eg. with two out, the run doesn't score until BR reaches first base safely

If the act of touching home base is an immediate "score/run" then I think that the statement that an offense "can't unscore a run" is inherently wrong.  You can indeed run back to third base, after touching home, if you realize you left early or missed it.  And that would unscore the run.

 

 

[VolUmp]

On 3/4/2017 at 2:56 PM, ElkOil said:

I'm willing to believe I'm wrong.

GOOD!  Because you are wrong. 

[VolUmp]

On 3/3/2017 at 10:06 PM, Guest Jon said:

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, fly ball is caught and 3rd base runner goes without tagging up, steps on home plate and retreats back to 3rd base where the 2nd base runner has tagged up and is now standing on 3rd base.  My opinion is that the fielder would have to tag the 2nd base runner even though she is on third, then either tag the 3rd base runner or the bag in that sequence to make a double play?  If the fielder tags the 3rd base runner or the bag before tagging the 2nd base runner (who is on 3rd) only the 3rd base runner would be out...is that correct?  Everyone in the stands for the fielding team was calling for a double play automatically.  Any thoughts?

Jon,

It's worth learning some "shop talk" so you don't get confused by the way we designate runners on this forum.

R1, R2, R3 represent Man on 1st, Man on 2nd, Man on 3rd, at TOP (Time Of Pitch).  Only High School Rules have a different method, and since you seem to be unpoisoned by this, I shall leave you pure.  Once a play begins, R1, R2, and R3 (or any subset that exists thereof) keep those designations until the play ends.  In other words, when R1 rounds 2nd and heads for 3rd, he doesn't suddenly change his name to R2 ... he's still R1 ... and even if he scores, he would be referred to as R1 who scored from 1B.

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, ElkOil said:

Let me preface by saying I believe everything you have said in your entire life.

I thought I'd bring this topic up at my association meeting, and our interpreter said that "you can't unscore a run." But I do know that even after crossing the plate, a runner has the opportunity to correct a mistake. So is it correct to say that any time a runner retouches home when retreating, the run he just scored comes off the board (except during a time play when the third out occurs after the run)?

No, that's not correct.

What your interpreter meant (and may have said): "A run that LEGALLY scores cannot be undone."  But, in the OP, the run didn't LEGALLY score because R3 left early.  So, retouching the plate does undo the run.

Take a similar play where R3 does NOT leave early (but thinks s/he does, or someone on the team thinks s/he does) and so LEGALLY scores, but attempts to return -- here, the re-touch of the plate does not mean anything.

[maven]

13 minutes ago, noumpere said:

No, that's not correct.

What your interpreter meant (and may have said): "A run that LEGALLY scores cannot be undone."  But, in the OP, the run didn't LEGALLY score because R3 left early.  So, retouching the plate does undo the run.

Take a similar play where R3 does NOT leave early (but thinks s/he does, or someone on the team thinks s/he does) and so LEGALLY scores, but attempts to return -- here, the re-touch of the plate does not mean anything.

This, which is clearer than my "unscoring" terminology.

In the contrast example, where R3's run is scored legally, even if the defense plays on R3 returning or appeals, R3 cannot be retired as he already scored.

[beerguy55]

5 hours ago, maven said:

This, which is clearer than my "unscoring" terminology.

In the contrast example, where R3's run is scored legally, even if the defense plays on R3 returning or appeals, R3 cannot be retired as he already scored.

 

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

No, that's not correct.

What your interpreter meant (and may have said): "A run that LEGALLY scores cannot be undone."  But, in the OP, the run didn't LEGALLY score because R3 left early.  So, retouching the plate does undo the run.

Take a similar play where R3 does NOT leave early (but thinks s/he does, or someone on the team thinks s/he does) and so LEGALLY scores, but attempts to return -- here, the re-touch of the plate does not mean anything.

So, taking any notion of other base runners out of the equation to avoid any possible confusion/distraction, if I legally touch all four bases on an inside the park hit, and then after touching home I get it in my head that I missed third base, I retouch home (or if I never took my foot off home plate, just turn around), run back to third base, and then stay there because the ball has come back into the infield, what happens?  Do you as the umpire tell me my run has scored, go to the dugout...or have I just turned my home run into a triple?

 

My assumption has always been that you could undo touching any base, even home, and return to any previous base, as long as the "travesty of the game" doesn't apply, and as long as you don't go beyond the base you occupied at TOP, even if you weren't correcting a mistake (ie. you simply believed you were correcting a mistake, or any other scenario causing you to believe you need to go back to your previous base).

[noumpere]

36 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Do you as the umpire tell me my run has scored, go to the dugout...or have I just turned my home run into a triple?

 

My assumption has always been that you could undo touching any base, even home, and return to any previous base, as long as the "travesty of the game" doesn't apply,

1) Yes -- get in the dugout

2) Your assumption is incorrect (at least in baseball)

[beerguy55]

49 minutes ago, noumpere said:

1) Yes -- get in the dugout

2) Your assumption is incorrect (at least in baseball)

Interesting.  My assumption is that baseball and softball would be the same in this regard.   But I'm curious, for OBR, is there a rule or case play you can point me towards?

I also want to make sure I'm understanding.

Let's say R2 advances to third on a single, touches the base, the play is still live, but he for some reason thinks it was a foul ball, so he trots back to second base, and then stays there when the ball comes into the infield, and hides his head in shame and embarrassment...he would have to stay at second base - correct?

BUT, what you're saying is if R3 advances home on a single, touches the base, the play is still live, but he for some reason thinks it was a foul ball, so he trots back to third base, and then stays there when the ball comes into the infield he would actually be awarded the run?

 

You may think I'm odd with these stupid situations, but I have a love for the academic side of the game, and this is my attempt to reverse engineer it.

[Stk004]

4 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Interesting.  My assumption is that baseball and softball would be the same in this regard.   But I'm curious, for OBR, is there a rule or case play you can point me towards?

I also want to make sure I'm understanding.

Let's say R2 advances to third on a single, touches the base, the play is still live, but he for some reason thinks it was a foul ball, so he trots back to second base, and then stays there when the ball comes into the infield, and hides his head in shame and embarrassment...he would have to stay at second base - correct?

BUT, what you're saying is if R3 advances home on a single, touches the base, the play is still live, but he for some reason thinks it was a foul ball, so he trots back to third base, and then stays there when the ball comes into the infield he would actually be awarded the run?

 

You may think I'm odd with these stupid situations, but I have a love for the academic side of the game, and this is my attempt to reverse engineer it.

Without my books handy, beerguy makes a lot of sense here. I don't see why returning to 2B from 3B is any different from going back to 3B from HP, other than the fact that the runner would've scored. 

Say we have R1 R2, two outs. Sharp line drive down the line that kicks off the corner and shoots towards CF. Both runners come across the plate but R2 missed home. Couldn't R1 touch home and go back to third to allow R2 to touch home and no longer be liable to be put out on appeal? 

[noumpere]

9 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Interesting.  My assumption is that baseball and softball would be the same in this regard.   But I'm curious, for OBR, is there a rule or case play you can point me towards?

Rule 5.08(a) Comment (Rule 5.06 Comment): A run legally
scored cannot be nullified by subsequent action of the runner,
such as but not limited to an effort to return to third base in the
belief that he had left the base before a caught fly ball.

[noumpere]

5 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Without my books handy, beerguy makes a lot of sense here. I don't see why returning to 2B from 3B is any different from going back to 3B from HP, other than the fact that the runner would've scored. 

Say we have R1 R2, two outs. Sharp line drive down the line that kicks off the corner and shoots towards CF. Both runners come across the plate but R2 missed home. Couldn't R1 touch home and go back to third to allow R2 to touch home and no longer be liable to be put out on appeal? 

APPROVED RULING: (A) No runner may return to
touch a missed base after a following runner has scored.

[Stk004]

Just now, noumpere said:

APPROVED RULING: (A) No runner may return to
touch a missed base after a following runner has scored.

Right. Which is why R1 would have to go back and touch and cross HP back in the direction towards third for R2 to legally touch home. My question is whether or not R1 is permitted to do so under the rules. I know I've heard of a similar situation before but I can't remember the specifics. 

[noumpere]

8 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Right. Which is why R1 would have to go back and touch and cross HP back in the direction towards third for R2 to legally touch home. My question is whether or not R1 is permitted to do so under the rules. I know I've heard of a similar situation before but I can't remember the specifics. 

From J/R (which approximates your play):  he fails to touch a base and a following runner has touched or passed home plate.
E.G.: R3 and R2, one out, A line drive is batted to left field. R3 tags up
while R2 stands halfway between second and third, and the ball
drops and bounds past the left fielder. R3 misses home anal R2,
only a few steps behind, touches the plate. After R2's touch, R3
nonchalantly touches the plate: an appeal against R3 is upheld; he
is out.

 

The play you are thinking of:  R2, R3.  Both leave early on a caught fly.  Both cross the plate.  Now, each can retreat.  That's not the play you presented.  Once R2 LEGALLY scores, R3 cannot return.