Coaches Scratching Officials

[VolUmp]

In our HS Association, Head Coaches are allowed to "scratch" (blackball) two umpires (extremely tenured coaches are allowed three) so long as they turn in their scratch list by noon the day prior to Opening Day.  This goes for away games as well as home games. (Tournaments are non-sanctioned, so they're tough luck).

Now, in basketball, there is a buyout procedure in place … which is where we get the FED Baseball Test Question that says, "As long as the official is paid, an official can be replaced if the coach so desires." If Coach Brown complains about Ref Davis, Ref Davis will be assigned to Coach Brown's very next game to force him to put his $$ where his mouth is.  He can buy out Ref Davis, for the full game fee, then Ref Davis can still pick up a different game.

I'm curious if this (scratching 2-3 coaches) is common among associations nation-wide or if we are unique. I'd love to have the basketball (buyout) policy in baseball.

Once the season starts, if a coach complains about a Baseball Official, the assignor may try to avoid matching the two up just to pursue the path of least resistance, but he certainly won't take games away from the official. There are enough games that the official will in no way be "slighted" ... he'll just work at another location.

Pre-season scratches are supposed to be confidential, but that's difficult to do in actuality. Only if an official receives multiple complaints in a relatively short period of time, will the assignor investigate and see if there is a recurring problem with the official — he'll do this by sending out observers to watch him work a couple of times and note how he handles people.

[ALStripes17]

In our HS Association, Head Coaches are allowed to "scratch" (blackball) two umpires (extremely tenured coaches are allowed three) so long as they turn in their scratch list by noon the day prior to Opening Day.  This goes for away games as well as home games. (Tournaments are non-sanctioned, so they're tough luck).

Now, in basketball, there is a buyout procedure in place … which is where we get the FED Baseball Test Question that says, "As long as the official is paid, an official can be replaced if the coach so desires." If Coach Brown complains about Ref Davis, Ref Davis will be assigned to Coach Brown's very next game to force him to put his $$ where his mouth is.  He can buy out Ref Davis, for the full game fee, then Ref Davis can still pick up a different game.

I'm curious if this (scratching 2-3 coaches) is common among associations nation-wide or if we are unique. I'd love to have the basketball (buyout) policy in baseball.

Once the season starts, if a coach complains about a Baseball Official, the assignor may try to avoid matching the two up just to pursue the path of least resistance, but he certainly won't take games away from the official. There are enough games that the official will in no way be "slighted" ... he'll just work at another location.

Pre-season scratches are supposed to be confidential, but that's difficult to do in actuality. Only if an official receives multiple complaints in a relatively short period of time, will the assignor investigate and see if there is a recurring problem with the official — he'll do this by sending out observers to watch him work a couple of times and note how he handles people.

So bad officials get paid more?

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[VolUmp]

Hmmmm.  So you assume because a coach complains, they're a bad official.

Wow. You have all the makings of a rat, AL. 

One such official who happens to be our State HS Baseball Director and who also did college basketball for 20+ years was scratched 45 min before tipoff once because it just happened to "get by the Head Coach" that he was assigned to his game.  The coach was able to scramble with the assignor and get another official for the game, and paid the scratched official in full with mileage money.  He was home in time for dinner.

[ALStripes17]

Hmmmm.  So you assume because a coach complains, they're a bad official.

Wow. You have all the makings of a rat, AL. 

One such official who happens to be our State HS Baseball Director and who also did college basketball for 20+ years was scratched 45 min before tipoff once because it just happened to "get by the Head Coach" that he was assigned to his game.  The coach was able to scramble with the assignor and get another official for the game, and paid the scratched official in full with mileage money.  He was home in time for dinner.

Im willing to bet bad officials get scratched more than good officials... Therefore, bad officials get paid more.

I feel that is a system prime for tampering.

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[VolUmp]

Well, jury's out on that.

I have never had a complaint on my ability as an umpire.

I have had plenty of complaints about my "attitude."

While I've owned up to this, I've never received a complaint from a winning coach.

I was scratched one time ... but the coach was fired before the season started and that "un-scratched" me.

[RichMSN]

I assign. I'd quit before I'd allow scratch lists like these.

Give coaches a little of this power and they'll stretch it to absurd levels. If a coach paid me off after driving to a school, I wouldn't be happy to be home by dinner. I officiate to work the games, not just to get a check.

[catsbackr]

VolUmp, we're from different parts of the same state and I think this practice is horrible.  The coaches need to coach and the umpires need to umpire.  Pretty simple formula, really.

[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, RichMSN said:

I assign. I'd quit before I'd allow scratch lists like these.

Give coaches a little of this power and they'll stretch it to absurd levels. If a coach paid me off after driving to a school, I wouldn't be happy to be home by dinner. I officiate to work the games, not just to get a check.

I don't think you'd be upset when it works like it's supposed to work.

You'd work one game and get paid for two.  You gonna complain about that?  Didn't think so.

I don't like the fact that there are scratch lists in baseball ... but as long as there are, I'd like it to work like it works in basketball, and effectively punish the coaches financially who are gonna be particular, and the benefit the umpires who are proven to be sound.

[RichMSN]

I don't think you'd be upset when it works like it's supposed to work.

You'd work one game and get paid for two.  You gonna complain about that?  Didn't think so.

I don't like the fact that there are scratch lists in baseball ... but as long as there are, I'd like it to work like it works in basketball, and effectively punish the coaches financially who are gonna be particular, and the benefit the umpires who are proven to be sound.

Giving coaches power to scratch is just not where I am. I'm more likely to feed the coach a diet of that umpire till he gets used to the taste. If the umpire doesn't want to be there, then fine...

[VolUmp]

14 minutes ago, RichMSN said:

I'm more likely to feed the coach a diet of that umpire till he gets used to the taste.

That's exactly how it works in basketball.  It's brilliant.

[JonnyCat]

Our HS association(largest one in the county) here in SoCal has a scratch list. I believe that coaches can scratch up to 5 officials. I don't like it, and I'm looking for a way to get our BOD to get rid of it. One of the biggest consequences to scratch lists is the failure of some umpires to eject coaches. Umpiring is a significant source of income for a number of members in our association. I think they are often reticent to eject for fear of loosing games. This breeds poor behavior and often makes things harder for other officials. I think the coaches in our area given far too much leeway from some of our umpires, and I think scratch lists are a big contributor.

[Replacematt]

I see no benefit to scratch lists if an association assigns umpires whose competence is commensurate with the level being played. If a coach has a legitimate issue about an umpire, then have a procedure in place to allow them to bring up such issues with the association. This is what we have, and there is no official blackballing. In the last three years, we have had exactly one grievance, which was addressed with all parties concerned and to everyone's satisfaction.

[VolUmp]

49 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

Our HS association (largest one in the county).

How many baseball officials?

[JonnyCat]

11 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

How many baseball officials?

A little over 100.

[VolUmp]

We've got 130.  (I was wondering how you can claim you're the largest in the country).  We're not even the largest in the Southeast.

The fact that we are so large enables the scratch list to be tolerated.  There is an association to our west and to our south that are very small.  About 25 officials in one and 40 in the other.  If coach scratches were allowed in those associations, there would be days that the coach would have to go without officials or bite the bullet.

[scrounge]

@VolUmp, he said county, not countRy

[VolUmp]

5 minutes ago, scrounge said:

@VolUmp, he said county, not countRy

Ahhhhh.  My bad.  Thanks, Scrounge.  My apologies, JonnyCat.

[JSam21]

9 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Our HS association(largest one in the county) here in SoCal has a scratch list. I believe that coaches can scratch up to 5 officials. I don't like it, and I'm looking for a way to get our BOD to get rid of it. One of the biggest consequences to scratch lists is the failure of some umpires to eject coaches. Umpiring is a significant source of income for a number of members in our association. I think they are often reticent to eject for fear of loosing games. This breeds poor behavior and often makes things harder for other officials. I think the coaches in our area given far too much leeway from some of our umpires, and I think scratch lists are a big contributor.

Scratch lists aren't inherently bad. Now one way to take care of the problem that you are describing.... If a coach from a school gets dumped, they no longer can have a list for 2 years.

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Scratch lists aren't inherently bad. Now one way to take care of the problem that you are describing.... If a coach from a school gets dumped, they no longer can have a list for 2 years.

That's a good idea. Hadn't thought about that. I'm going to incorporate that idea in my proposal to the BOD this year. Thanks for the suggestion.

[ALStripes17]

We've got 130.  (I was wondering how you can claim you're the largest in the country).  We're not even the largest in the Southeast.

The fact that we are so large enables the scratch list to be tolerated.  There is an association to our west and to our south that are very small.  About 25 officials in one and 40 in the other.  If coach scratches were allowed in those associations, there would be days that the coach would have to go without officials or bite the bullet.

My HS association covers around 40 schools. Both my baseball and football associations allow a coach to scratch up to 10% of our association membership IIRC.

Very few coaches use it but those that do typically have only one or two officials that they have had multiple personal issues with over a few years time... It usually isn't a one time grievance.

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[BT_Blue]

17 hours ago, RichMSN said:

Giving coaches power to scratch is just not where I am. I'm more likely to feed the coach a diet of that umpire till he gets used to the taste. If the umpire doesn't want to be there, then fine...

As far as I am aware... we have the same policy here in Vancouver, WA (not enough officials for a school to blacklist anyone) and Portland, OR (strong state officials association wouldn't allow it to happen.)

Both assignees will send the same guy back over and over again until they either kill each other or work their crap out.

[ALStripes17]

As far as I am aware... we have the same policy here in Vancouver, WA (not enough officials for a school to blacklist anyone) and Portland, OR (strong state officials association wouldn't allow it to happen.)

Both assignees will send the same guy back over and over again until they either kill each other or work their crap out.

In this world full of 'safe spaces'... I kinda like that. #Coach-Official Death match!

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[HokieUmp]

Sorry, VolUmp, but scratch lists are a TERRIBLE idea.  (I'd say more, but I believe we have a profanity scanner on this site.)  And I think the buyout idea is even worse.  Coaches are already generally pretty full of themselves, so the last thing they need are ego-stroking ideas like this, to feed their Napoleonic complexes.

As was said by someone else:  I don't officiate to make money.  I DO earn money, but given the time I sacrifice from other pursuits outweighs the money made over a year, and it's not even close.  I do it to do the work.  Getting paid to NOT show isn't a draw for me.  And being barred from certain schools because a coach has a hard-on about me?  How is that a good thing, ever?

[RichMSN]

48 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

Sorry, VolUmp, but scratch lists are a TERRIBLE idea.  (I'd say more, but I believe we have a profanity scanner on this site.)  And I think the buyout idea is even worse.  Coaches are already generally pretty full of themselves, so the last thing they need are ego-stroking ideas like this, to feed their Napoleonic complexes.

As was said by someone else:  I don't officiate to make money.  I DO earn money, but given the time I sacrifice from other pursuits outweighs the money made over a year, and it's not even close.  I do it to do the work.  Getting paid to NOT show isn't a draw for me.  And being barred from certain schools because a coach has a hard-on about me?  How is that a good thing, ever?

Exactly.

There are HS conferences around here where the commissioners (assigners) act as though keeping the coaches happy is the most important thing in the world.  They keep elaborate scratch lists, they hire officials from over an hour away, they honor requests for who they want to work, etc.  All it does is reinforce how important these coaches think they are.

I took this side gig cause I thought I could make a difference and a few extra bucks as well.  I send who I want to the schools.  Doesn't mean I always take the official's side -- I've fired people and I've told people when I think they're made mistakes.  I welcome feedback and lists of people coaches prefer -- and I use it as input and a sanity check from time to time.  Truth is, though, I know what makes a good official / umpire and I'm the one who's paid to make those decisions.

[LMSANS]

Around here, the schools are sent a roster of varsity eligible members (120).  The schools can then submit a list of up to 25 they want to work their home games in priority order.  They can also request specific umpires not work their games.  Assignments start with position 1 has the plate opening day, position 2 has the bases and so on.  If you've already been assigned a game that day, move on to the next on the list.  If no one is available, then the guys not on lists get their opportunity.  Our Association by-laws state that the lists must be followed as best they can.

Additional lists are submitted for conference, county and state tournaments.

It seems to be mostly BS.  2 years ago I had the plate opening day at one of the top schools.  I hadn't worked any level for that school in 3 or 4 years, but i had opening day and a week later games on the plate.  We are not allowed to see the lists, but we are told how many lists we are on and are given a score for our position.  My 11 lists put me with a score of 88 which puts me on the bottom half of the lists.  I think I get high scores from the assigner when he has run through the list, then I get the good schools...or not.