Umpire calls player out, then changes call

[beerguy55]

Play at the plate - catcher has the ball and moves to tag the runner who is still a good 10 feet from home base.  The runner veers to the right to avoid the tag, and the catcher successfully makes the tag on the runner's leg.  As well, the runner had moved several feet off the base path at the time and probably could have been called for that as well.  At this time the umpire signals and vocalizes "out".  After the ump says "out", the runner is about eight feet from the plate, behind the 3rd base side batter's box, and the catcher is between the runner and the plate, holding the ball - barely an arm's length from the runner.  When the ump calls "out" the catcher turns and throws the ball to the pitcher, and the runner goes to the plate, touches it, and returns to the bench.

The coach then asks the umpire to talk to his partner at third base, thinking that ump had a better angle.  The umpires talk, and the third base umpire ruled that the catcher had missed the tag, and they ruled the runner safe, and scored the run.

I commend the player for touching home plate - without doing that no appeal would have been successful.  However, I felt the plate ump had put the defense at a disadvantage by calling the runner out - especially in a scenario where, had he not vocalized "out", the catcher needed only reach out and tag the runner to finish the job.

If indeed the umpires overruled the original call, and determined that the tag had been missed and that the runner never left the base path, is ruling the runner safe their only option - or is there a mechanism to allow the umpire to say "I can't unring this bell"?   Like an early whistle in hockey?

[maven]

So, what's your idea, send the runner back to third? Put them back on the field near HP for a do-over?

No: there are 2 options, out or safe.

That said, given your post history it seems you've got some quality umpiring in your area. The BU has no business "overruling" this call from 100 feet away (the scare quotes indicate the fact that no umpire may overrule another).

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, maven said:

So, what's your idea, send the runner back to third? Put them back on the field near HP for a do-over?

No: there are 2 options, out or safe.

That said, given your post history it seems you've got some quality umpiring in your area. The BU has no business "overruling" this call from 100 feet away (the scare quotes indicate the fact that no umpire may overrule another).

What I meant by "can't unring the bell" is rule the runner out, even though it was determined that the tag was missed.  The analogy for me is a hockey referee blowing a whistle too early, thinking the puck was covered, where the puck is actually on a player's stick, where the ref can't see, on its way to going into the net.  He can't unblow the whistle, and the whistle kills the play. By calling "out" the umpire in effect ended any reason for the catcher to tag the runner again and again.  I would even argue that tagging the runner again, after the umpire had ruled out, would be considered unsportsmanlike by many umpires, coaches and players.  I'm reminded of a time where I believed a tag had been missed, yelled "tag him", and the umpire said "I called him out already"...that would have been interesting if they changed the call afterwards.  Usually, there's a slide, there's a tag, and the runner hits the plate/base in a continuous motion and it's just a matter of determining which happened first.  This play was unique in that regard - and it's always these unique plays that stick with me.  Now that I've found this site I'm flooded with memories of oddball plays of the past ten years of coaching.

 

Also, by "overruling" I meant that the original call was overruled, in general - not that one ump overruled the other.  The BU gives his opinion, the PU chooses to agree with it or not.  The original call is overruled (perhaps overturned is a better word) or not.  In this case, even though 100 feet away, there's a good chance the BU did have a better angle - the PU had somehow managed to find himself with the catcher between him and the runner when the tag was (allegedly) made.

[Richvee]

"The coach then asks the umpire to talk to his partner at third base, thinking that ump had a better angle. "

PU needs to own this call 100%.

 

"No coach, that's my call. I've got a tag. He's out. "

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, maven said:

That said, given your post history it seems you've got some quality umpiring in your area. 

I think you forgot a word in front of quality - questionable?  Poor?  Inconsistent?

I'm in Alberta but I've  been to a lot of tourneys in Montana, Idaho and Washington, and I find US umps a far higher quality than what we have north of the border - especially in softball.  I've seen higher quality umpires provided for a weekend 16U tourney in Kalispell, Montana than a Canadian National Championship.  My perception is there is a higher level of investment in umpire training south of the border, both in time and money. 

Even in judgment calls, I see a lot of really really bad calls up here compared to the south, most of them because the umps aren't in position, and many others because the umps are just old and don't see well...and oftentimes the age of the umpires is a factor in them getting into position.  And not a lot of new young umps coming in.

On the rules side I often find myself knowing the rules more than umps, which can get frustrating.  Or in cases like the example of the tag/collision at first base where I "think" I know the rule, and KNOW the umpire doesn't know what's going on, it ends up like two blind men arguing about the color of the sky.

[ALStripes17]

On the rules side I often find myself knowing the rules more than umps, which can get frustrating.  Or in cases like the example of the tag/collision at first base where I "think" I know the rule, and KNOW the umpire doesn't know what's going on, it ends up like two blind men arguing about the color of the sky.

Comments like this won't get you much respect around here. Remember your audience.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[JaxRolo]

23 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

On the rules side I often find myself knowing the rules more than umps, which can get frustrating.  Or in cases like the example of the tag/collision at first base where I "think" I know the rule, and KNOW the umpire doesn't know what's going on, it ends up like two blind men arguing about the color of the sky.

Now your are sounding more like a RAT COACH

[beerguy55]

7 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Comments like this won't get you much respect around here. Remember your audience.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Give me a break.   You do realize in my statement that I'm one of the blind men, right?  You gonna sit there and tell me that every umpire out there wearing the uniform, carrying the card and being paid to run a game is fully competent?   I know most of them are trying their best, but I have fired employees who were trying their best because they're not doing their job.

I've had many fantastic experiences with many umpires, but there is also definitely a high number of poor quality umpires.  Like ANY job.   I've had bad cab drivers too.  And I know in many ways it's a crap job that pays far less than it should, and that it is thankless, much like being a volunteer coach.

The reality is, many districts/regions/cities are taking literally anyone who will take an umpiring job because there are more positions than people, and you inevitably end up with a lot of umpires running ball games that don't know what they're doing.   Some just need experience to figure it out.  Some never do.  So, yeah, I'm gonna call bull when I am dealing with certified umpires who:

- think the hands are part of the bat

- don't know what a foul tip is

- think that if the batter makes the third out sliding into third base that the three runs that scored ahead of him don't count, because the batter was the third out

- don't know that "first base occupied" doesn't matter with two out

- think a force play is still on if you touch the bag and then go past it towards the next base, because you're off the base

- don't know what a catcher's balk is

Those are all real world situations I've had with certified umpires with multi-years of experience.  And then I learn that the umpires who believe these things are training new umpires.

So, yeah, if you're not willing to acknowledge that there are umpires out there that need a lot of work/help, and instead put up the thin blue wall to blindly protect all of them, that's part of the problem.

As a coach I'm willing to acknowledge that many coaches need work, including me.  And I do all that I can to keep the parents and players off the umpires' backs.  I rarely argue judgment calls.  And I ask for time after games to have longer discussions about situations so that I can understand, or that they can understand my viewpoint.  I have good relationships with many umpires up here.

If umpires are going to lose respect for me because I think some umpires aren't good at their job, they have bigger problems.

[ALStripes17]

Give me a break.   You do realize in my statement that I'm one of the blind men, right?  You gonna sit there and tell me that every umpire out there wearing the uniform, carrying the card and being paid to run a game is fully competent?   I know most of them are trying their best, but I have fired employees who were trying their best because they're not doing their job.

I've had many fantastic experiences with many umpires, but there is also definitely a high number of poor quality umpires.  Like ANY job.   I've had bad cab drivers too.  And I know in many ways it's a crap job that pays far less than it should, and that it is thankless, much like being a volunteer coach.

The reality is, many districts/regions/cities are taking literally anyone who will take an umpiring job because there are more positions than people, and you inevitably end up with a lot of umpires running ball games that don't know what they're doing.   Some just need experience to figure it out.  Some never do.  So, yeah, I'm gonna call bull when I am dealing with certified umpires who:

- think the hands are part of the bat

- don't know what a foul tip is

- think that if the batter makes the third out sliding into third base that the three runs that scored ahead of him don't count, because the batter was the third out

- don't know that "first base occupied" doesn't matter with two out

- think a force play is still on if you touch the bag and then go past it towards the next base, because you're off the base

- don't know what a catcher's balk is

Those are all real world situations I've had with certified umpires with multi-years of experience.  And then I learn that the umpires who believe these things are training new umpires.

So, yeah, if you're not willing to acknowledge that there are umpires out there that need a lot of work/help, and instead put up the thin blue wall to blindly protect all of them, that's part of the problem.

As a coach I'm willing to acknowledge that many coaches need work, including me.  And I do all that I can to keep the parents and players off the umpires' backs.  I rarely argue judgment calls.  And I ask for time after games to have longer discussions about situations so that I can understand, or that they can understand my viewpoint.  I have good relationships with many umpires up here.

If umpires are going to lose respect for me because I think some umpires aren't good at their job, they have bigger problems.

It's not the believing they aren't good at their jobs, it's the disrespect.

Most jobs and people are replaceable. I don't care what sort of job it is. The problem is, umpires aren't as easily replaceable, because people don't want to do it. Your analogy has a hole.

No issues with anything until you start disrespecting the people calling your games. That isn't tolerated.

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[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

It's not the believing they aren't good at their jobs, it's the disrespect.

Most jobs and people are replaceable. I don't care what sort of job it is. The problem is, umpires aren't as easily replaceable, because people don't want to do it. Your analogy has a hole.

No issues with anything until you start disrespecting the people calling your games. That isn't tolerated.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

And how was my statement disrespectful?  It was a simple statement of facts - there are many times when I, other coaches, and sometimes even the players, know the rules better than the guy running the game.  That's it that's all.  I truly hope that hasn't offended anyone's sensibilities.   And if you or anyone misinterpreted the blind men remark I apologize - I thought it was very clear that I was one of the blind men. 

I also typically and very respectfully try to help umpires in those situations.  At the very least, in a discussion in private, without showing up the ump in front of other people, ask them to look it up when they get a moment - I'm not worried about this game...I'm simply asking him to get it right next time.   As umps are indeed human, like all humans some don't like dealing with the possibility they are wrong, and would rather not deal with it...and others embrace the opportunity to learn from the situation.

On and off the field, respect between coach and umpire is a two way street.  Remembering that the coach is also being paid as crappily, if at all, as the umpire.  

Yes, I'm well aware that umpires are in short supply.  I made that very statement in my post.  And it leads to a significant problem of quality. Frankly, the same issue occurs with coaches.   However, if you read my first post in its entirety, I noted that there is a significant difference in quality between US and Canadian umpires, and it's apparent to me that US systems are doing something differently to train and improve the skill level of their umpires.   The issues I described above I've never seen in any US-based game my teams have played in.

No disrespect.  I've been on both sides of the equation.  Neither are fun when you're being screamed at.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

 

I'd recommend NOT introducing yourself as beerguy55 at the next plate meeting.

 

[scrounge]

In its entirety and in full context, I had no problem with beerguy's post

[Replacematt]

13 minutes ago, scrounge said:

In its entirety and in full context, I had no problem with beerguy's post

Neither did I.

[Aging_Arbiter]

I try not to judge.  Some people are more sensitive than others. Some take things WAY out of context to fit their own understanding or agenda. Some can dish it out and not take it.  Use whatever cliche' you'd like.   Momma' used to tell me that if you don't have something nice to say........shut the hell up.

 

[maineump]

1 hour ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

I try not to judge.  Some people are more sensitive than others. Some take things WAY out of context to fit their own understanding or agenda. Some can dish it out and not take it.  Use whatever cliche' you'd like.   Momma' used to tell me that if you don't have something nice to say........shut the hell up.

 

We all have partners that we don't like to work with, who think they know the rules better than anyone, don't have to follow the proper mechanics because they know better than the rest of us. I think the original post was OK, and I didn't see anything to take personal.

We all have coaches that we don't prefer to work their games, and I am sure (I have heard it) that coaches have umpires that they don't want to work their games.

The hockey reference really doesn't work, because it is what the officials do if they can't see the puck - many goals are waved off from early whistles. They just rest with a face-off. Baseball isn't like that, there really isn't a do-over like there is in hockey. Sounds like the umpire he was talking about, didn't own his call (as he should have). Perhaps he learned from this?

Either way - have a Merry Christmas all.

[maineump]

22 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I think you forgot a word in front of quality - questionable?  Poor?  Inconsistent?

I'm in Alberta but I've  been to a lot of tourneys in Montana, Idaho and Washington, and I find US umps a far higher quality than what we have north of the border - especially in softball.  I've seen higher quality umpires provided for a weekend 16U tourney in Kalispell, Montana than a Canadian National Championship.  My perception is there is a higher level of investment in umpire training south of the border, both in time and money. 

Even in judgment calls, I see a lot of really really bad calls up here compared to the south, most of them because the umps aren't in position, and many others because the umps are just old and don't see well...and oftentimes the age of the umpires is a factor in them getting into position.  And not a lot of new young umps coming in.

On the rules side I often find myself knowing the rules more than umps, which can get frustrating.  Or in cases like the example of the tag/collision at first base where I "think" I know the rule, and KNOW the umpire doesn't know what's going on, it ends up like two blind men arguing about the color of the sky.

I am glad that you notice better umpires in the States. Believe it or not, umpires generally work hard to get better and even learn from their mistakes.

Judgment calls are just that - it is their opinion of what they saw. On every judgment call we upset 50% of the crowd.

To understand the rules everyone needs to look at it 3 ways - 1. Read the rule as black & white, 2 - Understand the rules intent, 3 - Enforce the rule as intended. Some cases that happen it isn't black and white, it could involved more than one rule to enforce, or even which infraction came first. When enforcing the rules it can also be a judgment call, like in collisions at 1st base - there are more than one rule to enforce here - runners lane violation, obstruction, interference, malicious contact, so it depends on what happens and what the umpire sees. Someone will always be upset at the final call.

Final thoughts - the umpire's call has to stand. If you really believe you were wronged then file  protest through channels if you have them, but make sure to quote the rules you are appealing about. You are totally correct, getting new umpires is a tough thing to do - the old guys do hang in there, but we do the best we can. Respect is a two-way street - if we talk down to coaches we are disrespecting them, and it goes the other way too. Everyone needs to go into the game with a clean slate, perhaps the coach and/or umpire had a bad game the last time you saw each other - it is only baseball and life does go on. Enjoy the game, respect the game and just have fun.

 

[BCBrad]

As a Canadian umpire, I know there are a lot of good quality umpires in Canada, who are dedicated to the vocation.  Throwing Baseball Canada and Baseball Alberta's umpire development under the bus shows that you just want to complain without supporting the development of umpires in your community. 

I cannot not speak for Alberta, but to the west in BC, there are many men and women who have made long-term commitments to others and their own excellence in umpiring. In BC, we have super clinics where we have gotten MLB and AAA umpires come up for a weekend. Two years ago, we had Stu Scheurwater from Regina, a AAA and MLB umpire who is a Wendelstedt instructor come up  to Vancouver and he was fantastic. To quote Don Cherry, Stu is "a good Canadian kid." He is proud of his roots and what he learned from Baseball Canada's umpire development program. 

Given the size of Canada, both geographically and in population, ie. big country, small population, many dedicated umpires are isolated from accessing the wealth of learning and development opportunities our neighbours to the south have.  Last year, I bought all the Wendelstedt manuals from the States and when all said and done, they were over $200 Canadian. 

So what I am hearing from you is that you are an advocate for umpiring development in Alberta and you are thinking about volunteering to work with Baseball Alberta to set up an umpire clinic. I'm sure MidAmUmp could help.

If I heard you wrong, then your comments are what undermines umpire development in Canada, too many people thinking they are more knowledgable than the people in blue. The majority of umpires are younger umpires without mentors and advocates, who are being intimated by "daddy coaches" with made up or over-interpreted application of rules. Be an advocate and understand the commitment it takes to be out there in black or blue. Are you going to be part of the problem or part of the solution? As an UIC, I have umpire practices for my community's umpires and give feedback to umpires after their assignments. Also, I do practice on my own doing mechanics and positioning. The day I stop umpiring is the day I will stop learning about umpiring. I think for all umpires this is true. 

As for the original post, I agree with other posts: Own the call. Your partner is 100 feet away and you are 12 feet away, call it and stick with it. If you keep on second-guessing yourself, you are undermining the quality of your umpiring. 

[beerguy55]

15 minutes ago, BCBrad said:

As a Canadian umpire, I know there are a lot of good quality umpires in Canada, who are dedicated to the vocation.  Throwing Baseball Canada and Baseball Alberta's umpire development under the bus shows that you just want to complain without supporting the development of umpires in your community. 

I cannot not speak for Alberta, but to the west in BC, there are many men and women who have made long-term commitments to others and their own excellence in umpiring. In BC, we have super clinics where we have gotten MLB and AAA umpires come up for a weekend. Two years ago, we had Stu Scheurwater from Regina, a AAA and MLB umpire who is a Wendelstedt instructor come up  to Vancouver and he was fantastic. To quote Don Cherry, Stu is "a good Canadian kid." He is proud of his roots and what he learned from Baseball Canada's umpire development program. 

Given the size of Canada, both geographically and in population, ie. big country, small population, many dedicated umpires are isolated from accessing the wealth of learning and development opportunities our neighbours to the south have.  Last year, I bought all the Wendelstedt manuals from the States and when all said and done, they were over $200 Canadian. 

So what I am hearing from you is that you are an advocate for umpiring development in Alberta and you are thinking about volunteering to work with Baseball Alberta to set up an umpire clinic. I'm sure MidAmUmp could help.

If I heard you wrong, then your comments are what undermines umpire development in Canada, too many people thinking they are more knowledgable than the people in blue. The majority of umpires are younger umpires without mentors and advocates, who are being intimated by "daddy coaches" with made up or over-interpreted application of rules. Be an advocate and understand the commitment it takes to be out there in black or blue. Are you going to be part of the problem or part of the solution? As an UIC, I have umpire practices for my community's umpires and give feedback to umpires after their assignments. Also, I do practice on my own doing mechanics and positioning. The day I stop umpiring is the day I will stop learning about umpiring. I think for all umpires this is true. 

As for the original post, I agree with other posts: Own the call. Your partner is 100 feet away and you are 12 feet away, call it and stick with it. If you keep on second-guessing yourself, you are undermining the quality of your umpiring. 

Believe it or not, I'm on your side.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Umpiring is a thankless job and very few people appreciate what it takes to be an umpire, what needs to be known, and what needs to be done in real time speed. I've worked with umpire clinics, and I've volunteered in tournaments where I've had the honour of feeding the umpires, and in the evening providing adult beverages.

However, I know my experience and I stand by it.  I've seen umpiring in six provinces (including BC) and six states for hundreds of games in each - I stand by my observations.  The US systems do something different in developmental programs, and yes, you're right, population/geography is a significant factor.  But I suspect there's a different approach from which we can learn something.

In the end, i think it comes down to money, and I'm as strong an advocate you will find to change the economics of the whole damned system.  I find it sad and disgusting to pay $10,000 to rent a facility for a weekend, and only pay umpires $3000 for the same tournament.  To me, even doubling the fees for umpires results in a drop in the bucket for the overall increase in per player cost annually.  But for some reason people up her balk at "outrageous" fees to pay softball/baseball, but don't think twice about paying ten times more to play hockey.  I have advocated funneling nominal fee increases for any softball/baseball affiliated player (even $10/$20 per person per year), to Baseball/Softball Alberta, meant to go directly to a coffer for umpire development programs.  And though baseball/softball are different, I think there is enough similarity there for the two programs to have some common elements, and some common funding - because, frankly, a significant source of funding could come from the large number of adults who play slo-pitch, and I'd hate to see that disparity benefit only softball umpires.   My players have attended both coaching and umpiring clinics, even if they never do either, but to see how the other side lives.

Yes, you're right, many/most umpires want to learn, and the only way they'll improve is experience...every game they learn something and the next game they're better.  And if they love what they do that will continue forever.  In the US I've seen umpires flown from Florida and California to do a 14U weekend tournament in Great Falls, Montana.  I'm not sure I've seen that in Canada outside of Nationals.  Again, money.

And coaches need to be better about handling the issues that arise - especially with, as you said, the obviously new and young umps.  You're right, too many daddy coaches bully those guys.  However, on the other side, there are those umpires that aren't interested in learning, that think they know it all.  That aren't even interested in having a civilized discussion to see if maybe, perhaps, inconceivably they made a mistake, and maybe they can learn from it so they don't make the same mistake again.  I've had umps say "you know what, this is the call, but I will talk to a few of the other umps after the game and get back to you so we know for next time."  "Great, thank you."  However, many times I've simply asked "look, all I'm asking is for you to go home tonight and look it up, and if you prove me wrong you can come shove it down my throat...but please, just look it up, or ask your supervisor/UIC" and though once in a while I'll see the ones willing to do it, the more common answer I get is "I don't need to look it up" and three weeks later I see them making the same mistake.  I've had no less than half a dozen umps in three provinces (never in the US) tell me that the hands are part of the bat - that's six different tourney UIC's and at least three organizational heads I would have to alert.  The umpire who told me that the batter making the third out negated all runs that scored on the play, even though he passed first successfully and was out trying to stretch a double into a triple, was a 20 year veteran, the UIC for the tournament, and a trainer!  But the leader of any umpiring organization can only repeat himself so many times in educating his umpires, and knows he has a choice between a crappy ump and no ump, and I think just about any coach/player will take the crappy ump rather than pulling a parent out of the stands.   But maybe getting rid of the umps that don't want to learn, the ones that aren't engaged, and forcing more teams to either play with one ump instead of two, or play with a parent ump, will force the issue back to where I think it needs to be forced - money.   You want quality umping all the time (or more often than now), pony up.

I could probably name 15 people off the top of my head who would be very good umpires, but just don't think the money is worth the crap that umpires put up with.  The guys who go out there, take the crap, and the crap pay, and stay engaged are saints as far as I'm concerned.

[VolUmp]

BeerGuy55,

Don't overreact to what ALStripes17 and JaxRolo (after all ... he's a Dream Crusher) stated ... they're two of the best contributors here.

FWIW, I get 110% of your frustration of coaching a game and knowing the rules better than the officials.  That's largely what got me back into umpiring in 2004. I called for 3 years when I was very young, I started coaching my boys at age 38, and re-entered the BLUE world at 40 (now 53).  There were many years of overlap there.

I have a younger brother who coached for several years, who lives two states away, and CONSTANTLY would call my cell phone from his dugout shortly after a game where he knew either he or the opposing coach got screwed by an ump over a rule misapplication and nobody ever wanted to go through the protest procedures.  Here in TN, our High School Association allows no protests ... but if we did, there would be a lot of less-than-adequate officials exposed.

I also get the frustration of umpiring with a partner who may have a decent strike zone, and nicely presented in uniform, but he spends no time in the rule or case books, manuals, online forums, etc. and is brazen enough to dish out a phony rule book explanation to a coach where I have to go fix the problem.  I've had partners who thanked me and partners who despised me for intervening.  It's quite simple ... I'll never intervene on a judgment call that I know damn well my partner kicked unless he asks ... but I've got a zero tolerance policy for witnessing him misapplying rules and then displaying "cognitive conceit" to the head coach.

We have our large share of RATS around here, but we don't have enough "umpires generally work(ing) hard to get better and even learn from their mistakes" as MaineUmp stated ... rarely or never putting themselves through continuing education ... just like we all do in our "real jobs."  We sign up for the trip.  We know that handling abuse and disrespect comes with it.  We can either handle it or not ... I've admitted to many of my own shortcomings in that area on this forum.