Was that a foul ball?

[sd181612]

I'm watching the game and that fly towards the backstop is hit. Rizzo bounces it off of his hand then off of his glove and catches it. Isn't that supposed to be foul?

[stkjock]

Why? Never touched anything but a defensive player.  Ross and then Rizzo. 

It was the dugout BTW

 

edit - video

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v1210245983

[sd181612]

15 minutes ago, stkjock said:

Why? Never touched anything but a defensive player.  Ross and then Rizzo. 

It was the dugout BTW

 

edit - video

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v1210245983

Right but the rule states that whenever a foul ball touches a player in foul territory or umpire, or any object that is foreign to the field it is be deemed a foul ball. 

In baseball, a foul ball is a batted ball that:^[1][2]

• Settles on foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base, or
• Bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or
• First falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or
• While on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

[LittleBlue]

2 minutes ago, sd181612 said:

Right but the rule states that whenever a foul ball touches a player in foul territory or umpire, or any object that is foreign to the field it is be deemed a foul ball. 

In baseball, a foul ball is a batted ball that:^[1][2]

• Settles on foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base, or
• Bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or
• First falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or
• While on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

That last part is interpreted to mean if it touches a player in foul territory and then deflects fair it is a foul ball. The ball can still be caught on the fly for an out. 

[sd181612]

Just now, LittleBlue said:

That last part is interpreted to mean if it touches a player in foul territory and then deflects fair it is a foul ball. The ball can still be caught on the fly for an out. 

So it was an out? 

[stkjock]

It's an foul ball out, it has to be, if the ball was caught clean you'd have an out, never hits a foreign object. 

[sd181612]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[LittleBlue]

15 minutes ago, sd181612 said:

So it was an out? 

If the ball touches a player, who is over foul ground, on the fly and deflects cleanly to another player and is caught you have an out. If the ball touches a player, who is over foul ground, on the fly and then lands on the ground it is a foul ball.

[stevis]

It was a foul ball.

It was also caught for an out.  Scored 2-3.

[Mister B]

It's also not foul until it goes past the base, stops or is touched by something that isn't the ground. I still see guys calling a ball foul as soon as it hits the ground. 

[Stk004]

1 hour ago, Mister B said:

It's also not foul until it goes past the base, stops or is touched by something that isn't the ground. I still see guys calling a ball foul as soon as it hits the ground. 

Also, as was pointed out at a clinic, if you're not on the line for the love of God don't give a F/F decision. 

[maven]

What's missing in this discussion is the definition of IN FLIGHT. A ball in flight, fair or foul, may be caught for an out. Of course this ball was foul — it certainly wasn't fair, and what's the other option? — but is it still IN FLIGHT, so that it may be caught for an out?

Don't confuse in flight/not in flight with fair/foul. The two are completely independent, and fair/foul status is irrelevant to determining whether a ball may be caught for an out.

 

[LittleBlue]

8 hours ago, Mister B said:

It's also not foul until it goes past the base, stops or is touched by something that isn't the ground. I still see guys calling a ball foul as soon as it hits the ground. 

And I see some guys who have proper timing but yell foul at the top of their lungs when the need to yell foul does not exist. 

[Rich Ives]

11 hours ago, Mister B said:

It's also not foul until it goes past the base, stops or is touched by something that isn't the ground. I still see guys calling a ball foul as soon as it hits the ground. 

Fixable. We had a guy like that once - didn't understand the rule. Fixed.

[Mister B]

3 hours ago, LittleBlue said:

And I see some guys who have proper timing but yell foul at the top of their lungs when the need to yell foul does not exist. 

Here in LLville, I'll take that. We teach the kids to run on any hit, and that the umpire will let them know if it goes foul. 

[LittleBlue]

3 minutes ago, Mister B said:

Here in LLville, I'll take that. We teach the kids to run on any hit, and that the umpire will let them know if it goes foul. 

Oh if there are runners on base then by all means call it and call it loud but I mean with no one on if a batter hits a squiber between home and first that everyone knows is foul you can just calmly say foul when a fielder touches it. I've worked with a lot of partners who will yell fouls loudly even when the batter hasn't left the box because everyone and their birthger knows the ball will be foul when it is touched.

[sd181612]

My real question is (sorry for the confusing title) is the ruling of an out correct, or should it be foul, since it touched a fielder (counts as foul territory) and was then caught?

[noumpere]

5 minutes ago, sd181612 said:

My real question is (sorry for the confusing title) is the ruling of an out correct, or should it be foul, since it touched a fielder (counts as foul territory) and was then caught?

As has been answered several times -- it's an out.

[sd181612]

Thank you.

[Mister B]

I believe, if it touches a defensive player while in the air it is still a live ball. If it touches something else, other than the ground, in foul territory, it is foul*. After it touches the ground in foul territory it is a live ball until it comes to rest or touches something that isn't the ground in foul territory*. 

So, if that ball in the WS had hit the railing of the dugout after bouncing out of Ross' glove and before Rizzo caught it, it would be foul. 

*If the batter intentionally touches the ball in foul territory that had a chance to go fair, that's interference. Otherwise it is foul.

[sd181612]

15 minutes ago, Mister B said:

I believe, if it touches a defensive player while in the air it is still a live ball. If it touches something else, other than the ground, in foul territory, it is foul*. After it touches the ground in foul territory it is a live ball until it comes to rest or touches something that isn't the ground in foul territory*. 

So, if that ball in the WS had hit the railing of the dugout after bouncing out of Ross' glove and before Rizzo caught it, it would be foul. 

*If the batter intentionally touches the ball in foul territory that had a chance to go fair, that's interference. Otherwise it is foul.

Really appreciate it. Clears things up for me.

[maven]

34 minutes ago, sd181612 said:

My real question is (sorry for the confusing title) is the ruling of an out correct, or should it be foul, since it touched a fielder (counts as foul territory) and was then caught?

It's both.

Fair or foul? Foul.

Catch or no catch? Catch.

[VolUmp]

It was a pop up over foul territory that was caught for an out -- deflecting off of one player and caught by another.

If all foul balls are dead ... which they are ... it's confusing to say it was both a foul ball and a catch for an out.

One of 472 problems with the OBR book.

[Mister B]

So reverse maven's conditions. 

Was the ball caught? Yes. It's an out and a live ball. No. Where was the ball when it hit the player or glove? Fair and live if fair and foul and dead if foul. 

Remember, a fly ball deflected off a player is still in flight and can still be caught. So even though it hits a player, the first condition has not been met. 

Doesn't seem like that would be a difficult one to fix. To be a foul, the ball has to be uncaught...

[maven]

11 hours ago, WildFlyer said:

If all foul balls are dead ... which they are ... it's confusing to say it was both a foul ball and a catch for an out.

One of 472 problems with the OBR book.

No, they're not all dead. Example: R3, less than 2 outs, long foul fly to RF that is caught by F9 in flight. R3 tags up and scores, beating the throw from F9.

If the foul ball were dead, R3 could not advance, and there would be no play at the plate.

A foul ball is dead only after it touches something other than a player. And this is not a problem with the book.

5 hours ago, Mister B said:

To be a foul, the ball has to be uncaught...

And this is not right either. A batted ball is foul if it meets the conditions in the rule book. A fly ball caught over foul territory is still foul (a "foul out" in the scorebook).

Avoid a simple reduction that fair = live, foul = dead. Both are wrong. I've already given an example of a foul ball that's live (caught foul fly). Here's an example of a fair ball that's dead: long fly ball down the RF line, hits the foul pole on the fly. The moment its fair/foul status is determined, it becomes dead (and a HR).

Fair/foul tells us nothing about live/dead. They're defined by different rules and determined by different criteria. Most foul balls become dead; most fair balls are live. That doesn't imply that they're the same.