Umpire Interference

[GPblue]

I will start this post with I made a clear bonehead move and know my mechanics were poor, but just need help on placing runners.

R1 2 outs.  Ball hit two Right center field. I am PU and I take the runner into third.  On the throw in the ball goes into second and B1 gets in a run down. R1 sees this and heads towards home.  During my retreat, I make contact with the runner.

The runner was going to clearly be out, and I don't kill the play until a play at the plate is made.

I first give the runner the home, but after getting with my partner, it was in my judgement that he would have been out regardless, so we place him back on 3rd.

My next question is now placing B1.  We first place him on second, but my partner said at the time of the interference he had not earned 2nd yet, so we place him back on first.

I don't think the earning of 2nd should have mattered if in our judgement he would have earned 2nd.

looking for some clarification please. You can also bash me for making contact with the runner since I already know I kicked the S*&T out of it.

[JSam21]

ummm... there is no provision for placing the runner back on 3rd... he is out.

[spiffdawg7]

This is not umpire interference.  This is nothing and the out should stand.  There are only two types of umpire interference.  One is an umpire being hit by a batted ball before passing an infielder and the other is the plate umpire making contact with the catcher while he attempts to throw out a runner. 

[GPblue]

Then I clearly kicked two things.  Thank you for the clarification.

[noumpere]

Not\ bashing, but I would think about how / why I made contact with the runner, and how my positioning could be improved so I didn't do so the next time this happens.  For example, maybe I don't commit so hard to third if the throw is going to second.  Maybe, if I went fair, I don't do so next time.  Maybe, if I went fair and then moved to foul, I stay fair. ...

[GPblue]

26 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Not\ bashing, but I would think about how / why I made contact with the runner, and how my positioning could be improved so I didn't do so the next time this happens.  For example, maybe I don't commit so hard to third if the throw is going to second.  Maybe, if I went fair, I don't do so next time.  Maybe, if I went fair and then moved to foul, I stay fair. ...

that's what I came to from my mechanics.  The ball was going to be relayed from the outfield to third, which is why I came into the cutout.  But the ball then was bobbled, and then the run down happened.  I started drifting to foul territory to make my retreat, but got caught in no man's land.

I should have just kept my ground in the cutout, and made my way home in fair territory.  I do that and the out is recorded and no harm no foul.

That's why I posted this here, because I can admit my errors and learn from my brothers in blue.

[JSam21]

It is a learning situation... we've all done something like it. Just get better and move on. Like @noumpere said I wouldn't commit so hard to 3rd on that play. I would swing into foul territory down the 3rd base line, about 45' and read the play... as soon as I see that the throw isn't coming to 3rd, I'm busting back to the plate to be ready for a possible play at the plate and your partner has to take everything on the bases. We have to take this play as an angle over distance play. In a two man as the PU we can't over commit to the play at 3rd because a wild throw to 3rd or throw to another base now puts us into a foot race back to the plate. The only time we can really get on top of this play is in 3-man knowing that the 1st base umpire will be rotating down to the plate.

[maven]

1 hour ago, GPblue said:

The ball was going to be relayed from the outfield to third, which is why I came into the cutout.

This is the part that confuses me. In your first post, you said the throw went to 2B, and that the BR got in a rundown.

It sounds as if you expected the throw to go to 3B, so you went all the way to the cutout. Perhaps that's the learning point? We want to go halfway down the line, so that IF the throw actually goes to 3B, we can be at the cutout to take the play.

If there is no throw to 3B, then there is no reason for us to be there. A non-play requires a non-umpire. And we don't have to be at the cutout to see the touch.

When the BR gets in a rundown, with a runner now at 3B thinking about scoring, we should be retreating to the plate and communicating that to partner ("I'm going home!"). Any subsequent play on the bases would belong to the BU, so that we can get proper coverage at HP.

So had you been in the "library" (halfway down the 3B line reading the play), you would not have been in the runner's path and could have been back at the plate for any play there.

As I'm reading it, I think that's the mechanics takeaway here. We don't want to overcommit to a base: this is rarer for PU than BU, but when it happens it can have more dramatic results!

[GPblue]

1 hour ago, maven said:

This is the part that confuses me. In your first post, you said the throw went to 2B, and that the BR got in a rundown.

It sounds as if you expected the throw to go to 3B, so you went all the way to the cutout. Perhaps that's the learning point? We want to go halfway down the line, so that IF the throw actually goes to 3B, we can be at the cutout to take the play.

If there is no throw to 3B, then there is no reason for us to be there. A non-play requires a non-umpire. And we don't have to be at the cutout to see the touch.

When the BR gets in a rundown, with a runner now at 3B thinking about scoring, we should be retreating to the plate and communicating that to partner ("I'm going home!"). Any subsequent play on the bases would belong to the BU, so that we can get proper coverage at HP.

So had you been in the "library" (halfway down the 3B line reading the play), you would not have been in the runner's path and could have been back at the plate for any play there.

As I'm reading it, I think that's the mechanics takeaway here. We don't want to overcommit to a base: this is rarer for PU than BU, but when it happens it can have more dramatic results!

which is exactly what happened to me here.  Over hustle and anticipating the play instead of reading.

[LittleBlue]

As other have already said this isn't umpire interference. I posted here a few months ago about a partner I had who basically took out F2 and let a run score. Also not umpire interference. It's best to not anticipate what is going to happen or you'll get burned bad. Always think about the possible plays before the pitch but never try to guess the play. As long as you know what plays are possible, you should be able to let the play take you where you need to be with no trouble. This doesn't account for bonehead plays by the defense but you should be able to adapt.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, LittleBlue said:

As other have already said this isn't umpire interference. I posted here a few months ago about a partner I had who basically took out F2 and let a run score. Also not umpire interference. It's best to not anticipate what is going to happen or you'll get burned bad. Always think about the possible plays before the pitch but never try to guess the play. As long as you know what plays are possible, you should be able to let the play take you where you need to be with no trouble. This doesn't account for bonehead plays by the defense but you should be able to adapt.

I'm going to disagree here. We need to anticipate where the most likely play is going to happen. If we wait, we will not be able to get to where we need to in time. That's why mechanics incorporate intermediary positions to determine where we need to go next (such as "the library," called such because that's where we read the play.) What we don't want to do is commit before it is necessary. In the OP, if he goes to the library, he can pick up where the OF is and where the runners are, and then decide whether there's going to be a play at 3B.

[LittleBlue]

16 hours ago, Matt said:

I'm going to disagree here. We need to anticipate where the most likely play is going to happen. If we wait, we will not be able to get to where we need to in time. That's why mechanics incorporate intermediary positions to determine where we need to go next (such as "the library," called such because that's where we read the play.) What we don't want to do is commit before it is necessary. In the OP, if he goes to the library, he can pick up where the OF is and where the runners are, and then decide whether there's going to be a play at 3B.

Matt, I agree with that. I probably should have said commit instead of anticipate. As long as one doesn't find themselves prematurely committing to what they anticipate the most likely play to be, they should be good. Also, the higher level ball you work the easier it will be to anticipate plays correctly. When you're doing wreck, every play is a possibility.

[GPblue]

2 hours ago, LittleBlue said:

Matt, I agree with that. I probably should have said commit instead of anticipate. As long as one doesn't find themselves prematurely committing to what they anticipate the most likely play to be, they should be good. Also, the higher level ball you work the easier it will be to anticipate plays correctly. When you're doing wreck, every play is a possibility.

Sadly, the game I was doing was a D3 team against a JUCO and it felt like a Rec ball game.

[LittleBlue]

4 minutes ago, GPblue said:

Sadly, the game I was doing was a D3 team against a JUCO and it felt like a Rec ball game.

Fall ball is a totally separate beast. So far the most painless game I've worked this fall was a varsity camp/showcase. Everything else has been brutal mentally or physically. Hence the reason why I take more classes and do more work during the fall than the spring. I usually don't find baseball to be work but I do in the fall (life without parole might be a better definition).

[Richvee]

There's good and bad fall ball. Showcases, some of the better baseball camps in the area is always good baseball. In general, if you stay above 16u I find you tend to get decent ball. (there's always exceptions and outlayers) Then there's always the "first time on the big field " 13U that can make you think twice about why we do this. Got to take the good with the bad...especially in the fall.