LLWS - Curacao Pitcher

[zoops]

Couldn't find a dedicated LLWS thread so I'll post this here.  Curacao's (I believe vs. Australia) starting pitcher today would often start his delivery and very obviously stop at the top of his leg kick for a second or more before delivering the ball.  A couple times he even did a small leg kick, brought the leg back down, and then lifted it again for a bigger leg kick.  I know very little about LL rules and obviously with their leading off/stealing rules, maybe this isn't illegal even though it is nowhere near legal in OBR, FED, etc.  I was at the gym and didn't have audio so although I know they showed a few replays focusing on his delivery I don't know if they explained why it was allowed.  Just curious...

[Stk004]

7 minutes ago, zoops said:

Couldn't find a dedicated LLWS thread so I'll post this here.  Curacao's (I believe vs. Australia) starting pitcher today would often start his delivery and very obviously stop at the top of his leg kick for a second or more before delivering the ball.  A couple times he even did a small leg kick, brought the leg back down, and then lifted it again for a bigger leg kick.  I know very little about LL rules and obviously with their leading off/stealing rules, maybe this isn't illegal even though it is nowhere near legal in OBR, FED, etc.  I was at the gym and didn't have audio so although I know they showed a few replays focusing on his delivery I don't know if they explained why it was allowed.  Just curious...

I saw this too. If the kids were old enough to lead off and have pick offs and whatnot, it would definitely be an issue. I don't know if it makes much of a difference when the baserunners can't lead off.  

[Richvee]

27 minutes ago, zoops said:

Couldn't find a dedicated LLWS thread so I'll post this here.  Curacao's (I believe vs. Australia) starting pitcher today would often start his delivery and very obviously stop at the top of his leg kick for a second or more before delivering the ball.  A couple times he even did a small leg kick, brought the leg back down, and then lifted it again for a bigger leg kick.  I know very little about LL rules and obviously with their leading off/stealing rules, maybe this isn't illegal even though it is nowhere near legal in OBR, FED, etc.  I was at the gym and didn't have audio so although I know they showed a few replays focusing on his delivery I don't know if they explained why it was allowed.  Just curious...

I only saw about 10 minutes of the game, and it happened to be when they were talking about this. I think it was Kruk who said "That's gotta be illegal. Isn't that illegal?"  And it ended there. Highly doubtful,but maybe they got some info and explained later, I wasn't watching. 

[Jimurray]

Video please. Set or Windup or either per OBR pitching restrictions, which I don't think LL has revised their bock to. Anyway, currently a LL pitcher can windup from the stretch. If he was doing that was he doing a "Japanese windup"? Which is allowed in OBR. 

[Thunderheads]

8 hours ago, Richvee said:

I only saw about 10 minutes of the game, and it happened to be when they were talking about this. I think it was Kruk who said "That's gotta be illegal. Isn't that illegal?"  And it ended there. Highly doubtful,but maybe they got some info and explained later, I wasn't watching. 

that comment alone should explain a lot!!  

[Rich Ives]

The runners cannot lead. They cannot leave the base until the pitch reaches the batter. Nothing the pitcher does can fake them into thinking they can start to steal. Therefore no point in calling anything.

 

and one of the announcers did say probably because the runners can't  lead

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 Little League Baseball rule book (p. 109):

“NOTE:  Under no circumstances shall a balk be called in Little League (Major) or Minor League.”

[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 Little League Baseball rule book (p. 109):

 

“NOTE:  Under no circumstances shall a balk be called in Little League (Major) or Minor League.”

 

However, what would be a balk will be called an illegal pitch and a ball added to the count.

[Stk004]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

However, what would be a balk will be called an illegal pitch and a ball added to the count.

Only in certain situations. 

[Jimurray]

18 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Only in certain situations. 

That's true. 8.05(l) and (m) are excluded and some of (a) thru (k) would not occur on the small diamond. But a few years back no IPs were called with runners on and then something changed in the wording where IPs will be called with runners on.

[zoops]

4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

The runners cannot lead. They cannot leave the base until the pitch reaches the batter. Nothing the pitcher does can fake them into thinking they can start to steal. Therefore no point in calling anything.

 

and one of the announcers did say probably because the runners can't  lead

I figured it was probably allowed because there's no balks in LL.  However, it seems like it could be deemed to be messing with the batter when the pitcher starts his delivery and pauses for a couple seconds, etc.  Again, I have no knowledge of specific LL rules so I was just wondering if something that would prohibit this existed.  

 

I'm too dumb to find video of it.  Early innings of Curacao vs. Australia on Tuesday, August 23.  Game started at about 4:00 PM Central time.  

[Thawk]

5 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

that comment alone should explain a lot!!  

There was one incident during that game where I thought an illegal pitch could have been called, and that's what Kruk was referring to.  In the inning, F1 for Curacao raised his foot as he had been doing, put it down, and immediately raised it again.  That's where Kruk began to ask about the pitch being illegal.  Now, watching the kid, he was wobbling so I'm wondering if he put his foot down for balance, the PU saw that, and let it go.

[Stk004]

5 minutes ago, Thawk751 said:

There was one incident during that game where I thought an illegal pitch could have been called, and that's what Kruk was referring to.  In the inning, F1 for Curacao raised his foot as he had been doing, put it down, and immediately raised it again.  That's where Kruk began to ask about the pitch being illegal.  Now, watching the kid, he was wobbling so I'm wondering if he put his foot down for balance, the PU saw that, and let it go.

Since runners can't steal couldn't this just be considered part of a windup as long as F1 doesn't stop his motion?

[Thawk]

LL Rule 8.05(a)- With runner or runners on base, it is an illegal pitch when the pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery.  I believe that Australia did have runner on first, but can't remember for sure now.

[Stk004]

3 minutes ago, Thawk751 said:

LL Rule 8.05(a)- With runner or runners on base, it is an illegal pitch when the pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery.  I believe that Australia did have runner on first, but can't remember for sure now.

 

11 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Since runners can't steal couldn't this just be considered part of a windup as long as F1 doesn't stop his motion?

 

[JaxRolo]

Havent read all the posts but are there balks in LL???

 

[Stk004]

Just now, JaxRolo said:

Havent read all the posts but are there balks in LL???

 

Majors and below, no. Juniors and up, you bet. 

[JaxRolo]

1 minute ago, Stk004 said:

Majors and below, no. Juniors and up, you bet. 

But not in LLWS right? I don't know all these LL terms.

[Stk004]

Just now, JaxRolo said:

But not in LLWS right? I don't know all these LL terms.

Correct. 

[stkjock]

20 minutes ago, JaxRolo said:

But not in LLWS right? I don't know all these LL terms.

LLWS is "Majors" 12u.  No balks, no leading, runner can leave when pitch reaches batter.  

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, zoops said:

However, it seems like it could be deemed to be messing with the batter

The balk rule is to prevent "messing with" the runner.  It has nothing to do with the batter. (at least in OBR, FED and NCAA; no idea in LL)

[zoops]

4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The balk rule is to prevent "messing with" the runner.  It has nothing to do with the batter. (at least in OBR, FED and NCAA; no idea in LL)

Of course...

[mwest5575]

Hi, I'm resurrecting an old thread it looks like. I umpire a lot of Little League. Obviously we'd have to see the video but I question some of the comments on this thread. First, 8.05 applies to balks, and since there are no lead offs in Majors and below, they are enforced as illegal pitches (12U). But that doesn't mean that you have to have runners on to have an illegal pitch. Rule 8.01 goes into great detail about what is legal, and by rule, once you start your motion you are committed to pitch "without interruption or alteration." It also states from the windup you get one step back and one forward with the free foot. Otherwise, you have an IP and 8.01(d) states that an IP without runners on base is a ball. 

Legal/illegal pitch rules aren't just to protect the runners but the batters as well. We make this call all the time in LL as the younger pitchers will get nervous and do this. It really messes the batters up and it is not a legal pitching motion according to 8.01. I think 8.05 confuses people because it starts with "with runners on base..." and then has the note that Majors and below it is an IP, as if that's the ONLY time you have an IP. That's not the intention. They are just making a note to address that there are no balks in lower levels.

So if I had been doing that game (and if the motion was really as interrupted as it sounds like it was) I would have called a ball every time. Just my $.02 and I'd love to hear any other comments. But we enforce this as a point of emphasis at our league.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, mwest5575 said:

Hi, I'm resurrecting an old thread it looks like. I umpire a lot of Little League. Obviously we'd have to see the video but I question some of the comments on this thread. First, 8.05 applies to balks, and since there are no lead offs in Majors and below, they are enforced as illegal pitches (12U). But that doesn't mean that you have to have runners on to have an illegal pitch. Rule 8.01 goes into great detail about what is legal, and by rule, once you start your motion you are committed to pitch "without interruption or alteration." It also states from the windup you get one step back and one forward with the free foot. Otherwise, you have an IP and 8.01(d) states that an IP without runners on base is a ball. 

Legal/illegal pitch rules aren't just to protect the runners but the batters as well. We make this call all the time in LL as the younger pitchers will get nervous and do this. It really messes the batters up and it is not a legal pitching motion according to 8.01. I think 8.05 confuses people because it starts with "with runners on base..." and then has the note that Majors and below it is an IP, as if that's the ONLY time you have an IP. That's not the intention. They are just making a note to address that there are no balks in lower levels.

So if I had been doing that game (and if the motion was really as interrupted as it sounds like it was) I would have called a ball every time. Just my $.02 and I'd love to hear any other comments. But we enforce this as a point of emphasis at our league.

Where does the LLGB rule say to call a ball for a violation of 8.01?  

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, mwest5575 said:

Hi, I'm resurrecting an old thread it looks like. I umpire a lot of Little League. Obviously we'd have to see the video but I question some of the comments on this thread. First, 8.05 applies to balks, and since there are no lead offs in Majors and below, they are enforced as illegal pitches (12U). But that doesn't mean that you have to have runners on to have an illegal pitch. Rule 8.01 goes into great detail about what is legal, and by rule, once you start your motion you are committed to pitch "without interruption or alteration." It also states from the windup you get one step back and one forward with the free foot. Otherwise, you have an IP and 8.01(d) states that an IP without runners on base is a ball. 

Legal/illegal pitch rules aren't just to protect the runners but the batters as well. We make this call all the time in LL as the younger pitchers will get nervous and do this. It really messes the batters up and it is not a legal pitching motion according to 8.01. I think 8.05 confuses people because it starts with "with runners on base..." and then has the note that Majors and below it is an IP, as if that's the ONLY time you have an IP. That's not the intention. They are just making a note to address that there are no balks in lower levels.

So if I had been doing that game (and if the motion was really as interrupted as it sounds like it was) I would have called a ball every time. Just my $.02 and I'd love to hear any other comments. But we enforce this as a point of emphasis at our league.

With no runners It is only an IP if it meets the "real" definition of an IP  (quick pitch, pitch while not on rubber) 

With runners it's an IP if it breaks a balk rule (same rule, violation has different terms).

It IS about messing with the runner, not the batter.