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Harrison Scores on OBS - Media Reports as Error


stkjock
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I didn't notice it at first, however PU clearly calls OBS on F5, seems to my layman eye, that Harrison would not have made it home as the pitcher was there backing up.  F1 then gives up on the play seeing PU's signal.

6.01 (h) 

Quote

(2) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

Thoughts?

best view at 1:00 mark

http://m.mlb.com/video/v947309183/must-c-conclusion-harrisons-little-league-walkoff

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9 minutes ago, stkjock said:

I didn't notice it at first, however PU clearly calls OBS home, seems to my layman eye, that Harrison would not have made it home as the pitcher was there backing up.  F1 then gives up on the play seeing PU's signal.

6.01 (h) 

Thoughts?

best view at 1:00 mark

http://m.mlb.com/video/v947309183/must-c-conclusion-harrisons-little-league-walkoff

There WAS a play being made on the runner.  He WAS obstructed.

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One announcer (at least) said the ball went in the dugout.  Don't know if that's true.

 

If it is NOT true, just because F1 "gives up" doesn't mean that the runner isn't allowed to advance.  F1 should keep making a play.  If the throws the runner out, maybe the game is still going on.

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This is obstruction without a play.  Ball remains live.  Either (a) the defense didn't know enough to keep playing or (b) the announcers for both teams were correct (that would be a first) and the ball entered the dugout so the defense stopped playing.  There was not a good camera shot of the ball entering (or going near) the dugout to confirm whether it actually did, in fact, entered the dugout.  But, I'm guessing it did based on the players' reaction. 

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9 minutes ago, lawump said:

This is obstruction without a play.  Ball remains live.  Either (a) the defense didn't know enough to keep playing or (b) the announcers for both teams were correct (that would be a first) and the ball entered the dugout so the defense stopped playing.  There was not a good camera shot of the ball entering (or going near) the dugout to confirm whether it actually did, in fact, entered the dugout.  But, I'm guessing it did based on the players' reaction. 

Really? In Calvinball maybe. 

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22 minutes ago, lawump said:

This is obstruction without a play.  Ball remains live.  Either (a) the defense didn't know enough to keep playing or (b) the announcers for both teams were correct (that would be a first) and the ball entered the dugout so the defense stopped playing.  There was not a good camera shot of the ball entering (or going near) the dugout to confirm whether it actually did, in fact, entered the dugout.  But, I'm guessing it did based on the players' reaction. 

to me it looks like the ball bounced off a fence/wall and rolled back toward the field.  I would agree the defense likely didn't know enough.

25 minutes ago, noumpere said:

One announcer (at least) said the ball went in the dugout.  Don't know if that's true.

 

If it is NOT true, just because F1 "gives up" doesn't mean that the runner isn't allowed to advance.  F1 should keep making a play.  If the throws the runner out, maybe the game is still going on.

my point of saying F1 gave up - was not to be an indication of what the runner should or shouldn't do - it was to say F1 screwed up.

 

 

just watched the video again - IMO, no way the ball went into the dugout, on one replay you can hear it hit something hard and it immediately bounces back into the field 

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26 minutes ago, lawump said:

This is obstruction without a play.  Ball remains live.  Either (a) the defense didn't know enough to keep playing or (b) the announcers for both teams were correct (that would be a first) and the ball entered the dugout so the defense stopped playing.  There was not a good camera shot of the ball entering (or going near) the dugout to confirm whether it actually did, in fact, entered the dugout.  But, I'm guessing it did based on the players' reaction. 

If you're going with "ball in dugout," then it's not OBS of any kind: they can't hinder a runner advancing on an award! ;)

But if the ball did NOT go in the dugout, I agree that this would be Type 2/B OBS. The hindrance occurs after the ball gets away from the defense. The fact that moments earlier they were making a play on the runner does not make this Type 1/A OBS. The award is moot, as the runner scored without a play.

As for the scoring, it's a throwing error that enabled the run to score, no matter what happened (dugout, OBS, runner scoring on the overthrow).

Also: nice rotation by entire crew.

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my point of saying F1 gave up - was not to be an indication of what the runner should or shouldn't do - it was to say F1 screwed up.

 

 

just watched the video again - IMO, no way the ball went into the dugout, on one replay you can hear it hit something hard and it immediately bounces back into the field 

No angle tells us where the ball actually hit. It's possible it found an opening in the dugout and there was a player/cooler/thing near the opening that knocked it back in from the steps.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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This is a view of the 3rd base dugout from the 1st base side. Since the only thing stopping a ball from entering the dugout are the wrapped poles/posts, it most likely did exactly what @ALStripes17 described.

pirates.jpg

I went and did that virtual tour too!! Also found an image from pregame one day that shows the façade of the 3B line.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Really? In Calvinball maybe. 

I think the ball went into the dugout but are you saying that the umpires here and in the Cards-Red Sox game 3 WS obstruction call should have killed the play right away on type 1 Obstruction?

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Was discussing this play/call with a Pirate's fan earlier today. Afterwards he wrote:

Since I emailed this I was tweeting with a couple reporters, including a photographer who was in the camera well beside the dugout; they confirmed the ball had gone into the camera well and rebounded from DBT. 

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2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Really? In Calvinball maybe. 

At the time of the obstruction the defense was not making a play on the runner.  At the time of the obstruction the ball was on the ground rolling around.  The defense was trying to make a play of fielding the thrown ball (which was rolling around), they weren't trying to make a play on the runner (to paraphrase Evans).  That's obstruction without a play in Calvinball and baseball. 

(All of this, of course, assumes that the ball did not go into the dugout.)

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2 hours ago, maven said:

If you're going with "ball in dugout," then it's not OBS of any kind: they can't hinder a runner advancing on an award! ;)

Agreed.  I was just trying to provide one possible explanation for why the defense stopped playing.  But then you went all philosophical and psycho-analytical in a subsequent post, and I went into a corner of my office and rolled up into the fetal position.  :D

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14 minutes ago, Packerbacker said:

Was discussing this play/call with a Pirate's fan earlier today. Afterwards he wrote:

Since I emailed this I was tweeting with a couple reporters, including a photographer who was in the camera well beside the dugout; they confirmed the ball had gone into the camera well and rebounded from DBT. 

 

interesting, I would never have guessed that.  Thanks for sharing the details.

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The batter hit a triple. The initial play was on him at third base as he slid in. They defense kept after the ball in order to keep playing on him. Who else - the backyard ghost runner?  And you think there was no play being made on the B-R? Nonsense.

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Were they  making a tag attempt on him? Was he in a run down?

 

You're not using "making a play on him" in the same way Maven is.

 

Think of this the same as getting tangled with a fielder after an overthrow at 1B - are you saying they're making a play on the runner there? 

By what it looks like you're meaning by making a play on him, then it would logically follow that unless the defense is standing there watching runners run the bases, that they're always making a play on the runner, thus all obstruction would be an immediate dead ball.

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14 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

The batter hit a triple. The initial play was on him at third base as he slid in. They defense kept after the ball in order to keep playing on him. Who else - the backyard ghost runner?  And you think there was no play being made on the B-R? Nonsense.

You are using the layman's definition of "play" instead of the technical definition required by MiLB/MLB to be used by umpires.  A "play" for purposes of this rule is:

1.  A throw by one fielder to another fielder in an attempt to retire a runner;

2.  A tag or tag attempt of a base in an attempt to retire a runner;

3.  A tag or attempted tag of a runner in an attempt to retire him; or

4.  A rundown.

At the time of the obstruction, were any of these four events occurring?  The answer is "no"; the defense was chasing after the ball which was rolling on the ground.  

This is how pro umpires are taught; this was obstruction without a play.

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9 minutes ago, lawump said:

You are using the layman's definition of "play" instead of the technical definition required by MiLB/MLB to be used by umpires.  A "play" for purposes of this rule is:

1.  A throw by one fielder to another fielder in an attempt to retire a runner;

2.  A tag or tag attempt of a base in an attempt to retire a runner;

3.  A tag or attempted tag of a runner in an attempt to retire him; or

4.  A rundown.

At the time of the obstruction, were any of these four events occurring?  The answer is "no"; the defense was chasing after the ball which was rolling on the ground.  

This is how pro umpires are taught; this was obstruction without a play.

Also, you can see PU (rotated to third) point and call the obstruction without killing the play (because it's type 2 obstruction).  It looks like U1 (rotated to the plate), who has overthrow responsibility, kills the play and awards home to the runner.  Textbook all the way around.  These guys are good!

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

The batter hit a triple. The initial play was on him at third base as he slid in. They defense kept after the ball in order to keep playing on him. Who else - the backyard ghost runner?  And you think there was no play being made on the B-R? Nonsense.

I believe you have access to a PBUC. If so, read the chapter on obstruction. There is an example of a throw to 2B on a stealing runner going past the bag. The runner is obstructed going to 3B and it is type 2.

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