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Runner Steals During Checked Swing Appeal


Mudder
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R2, partner is in C, F5 playing in, nobody covering 3B, I'm appealing to my partner on a checked swing, he "says no he didn't", defensive coach yells out "I can't believe you both missed that!", then partner and him exchange a few words, as this is happening R2 steals 3B, coach comes out asking that during an checked swing appeal "isn't it like time is called, or is it a live ball?".  I say live ball.

I understand its a live ball and runners can steal,  but there are times when play is relaxed and time is not specifically called, and "administrative" stuff is happening like foul balls being returned to the plate ump, coach yelling in a line change to the ump, etc. what do you do if runners steal in these cases?

 

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You don't call time when handling baseballs or taking substitutions?

To answer the question: there's no such thing as "administrative time," and I'm not calling time so that coach can bitch from the dugout. If his players choose to be entertained by him instead of playing baseball, that's up to them. Maybe he'll think twice before opening his yap next time.

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8 minutes ago, maven said:

You don't call time when handling baseballs or taking substitutions?

To answer the question: there's no such thing as "administrative time," and I'm not calling time so that coach can bitch from the dugout. If he players choose to be entertained by him instead of playing baseball, that's up to them. Maybe he'll think twice before opening his yap next time.

I get it, but what about something like F1 requesting a different ball, throws his ball to F2 and you show F2 the only 2 beat up balls in your ball bag and say pick one, nobody calls time in this case, and runner steals?

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I get it, but what about something like F1 requesting a different ball, throws his ball to F2 and you show F2 the only 2 beat up balls in your ball bag and say pick one, nobody calls time in this case, and runner steals?

You call time... major ding in college for guys in our area if you don't kill it

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Amen on calling 'time'... and may I add, it should be loud enough for at least the infield and both dugouts to hear??? I'm learning that many guys think it's 'schmitty' to kill the ball 'too much'. 

The OP may be a bit different, perhaps it was correct to NOT kill it in that instance, and the play, perhaps... should stand. But is there anything worse than calling time after the fact, and reversing a play, because nobody was watching? 

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1 hour ago, Mudder said:

I get it, but what about something like F1 requesting a different ball, throws his ball to F2 and you show F2 the only 2 beat up balls in your ball bag and say pick one, nobody calls time in this case, and runner steals?

There's your problem right there. In FED, "inspection of the ball" is in the rule dictating when the ball becomes dead, but it's the same at any level. (5-2-1f)

1 minute ago, kstrunk said:

Amen on calling 'time'... and may I add, it should be loud enough for at least the infield and both dugouts to hear??? I'm learning that many guys think it's 'schmitty' to kill the ball 'too much'. 

Not for me. As PU I'd make sure my partner saw/heard me. If something happens on the bases, he can kill it more "aggressively" and stop shenanigans. If he didn't, then I would.

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Part of my short plate meeting at lower levels (meaning levels below high school) is "if you have a question about a call, request time. . ."  Anything they yell from a dugout should be ignored, especially during play.  As BU I would never have "exchanged a few words" as the ball was still live.  If I felt exchanging words was necessary I would call time and then address the coach.

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33 minutes ago, umpire_scott said:

Part of my short plate meeting at lower levels (meaning levels below high school) is "if you have a question about a call, request time. . ."  Anything they yell from a dugout should be ignored, especially during play.  As BU I would never have "exchanged a few words" as the ball was still live.  If I felt exchanging words was necessary I would call time and then address the coach.

There should be no mention of this at your plate meeting. Introductions, lineups, ground rules, and anything your organization requires you to address. That is it.

Don't penalize the other team because someone wants to bitch. Only do this when there is no further playing action, unlike the OP.

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6 hours ago, Matt said:

There should be no mention of this at your plate meeting. Introductions, lineups, ground rules, and anything your organization requires you to address. That is it.

Don't penalize the other team because someone wants to bitch. Only do this when there is no further playing action, unlike the OP.

Red - At lower levels this is pertinent information for the coaches.  I'm not being evaluated and it sets a positive tone for any communication.

Blue - Are you saying that if a coach was yelling from the dugout and refused to stop you would not address it?  I already stated I would call time so clearly no further playing action is going on, thus no penalizing of the other team.

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6 minutes ago, umpire_scott said:

Red - At lower levels this is pertinent information for the coaches.  I'm not being evaluated and it sets a positive tone for any communication.

Blue - Are you saying that if a coach was yelling from the dugout and refused to stop you would not address it?  I already stated I would call time so clearly no further playing action is going on, thus no penalizing of the other team.

Red- I think it kind of gives coaches the impression that it's okay to come out and argue with the umpires.

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30 minutes ago, umpire_scott said:

Red - At lower levels this is pertinent information for the coaches.  I'm not being evaluated and it sets a positive tone for any communication.

Blue - Are you saying that if a coach was yelling from the dugout and refused to stop you would not address it?  I already stated I would call time so clearly no further playing action is going on, thus no penalizing of the other team.

No, it doesn't. It tells them that you expect either to mess up, that they're going to argue, or both.

You made no mention of no further playing action, and given that the OP was regarding an argument during playing action, there was no reasonable assumption that play was over.

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10 minutes ago, Matt said:

No, it doesn't. It tells them that you expect either to mess up, that they're going to argue, or both.

You made no mention of no further playing action, and given that the OP was regarding an argument during playing action, there was no reasonable assumption that play was over.

Really??  The fact that I said "I would never engage a coach while the ball was still live" would not infer a reasonable assumption that I would wait for play to stop?  Instead you assume I would call time while the ball was in play?  Why don't you read an entire post before jumping to critique mode.

As for the plate meeting you notice there are ellipses, which means I did not include the entire sentence.  I often have coaches come out of dugouts and ask PU to rule about BU's call and vice versa.  So my statement at the plate meeting for lower levels is "If you have a question about a call, request time.  After time is granted go to the umpire that made the call. It is their discretion whether to get help from their partner".  This has been very effective in letting coaches know how to properly address the umpires.  I would not do it at levels where the coaches clearly should know what they are doing.  But it is very effective when the coach is just a dad of one of the kids and is not well versed in proper protocol. 

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1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I teach at all levels to NOT say anything remotely close to what Scott had in red.  And, I do so for exactly the reasons Matt and umpstu indicated.

Me too. Also for the same reasons.

Psychologists call it 'priming': by making certain associations in someone's mind, they're quicker to expect it in the future. When we prime coaches to expect confrontation, it makes confrontation more likely.

The content of the plate meeting is short and sweet: introductions, lineups, ground rules, any info required by the league. We can strive to prime coaches with our body language, tone of voice, and attitude to expect professionalism and a smoothly officiated game.

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2 hours ago, umpire_scott said:

Really??  The fact that I said "I would never engage a coach while the ball was still live" would not infer a reasonable assumption that I would wait for play to stop?  Instead you assume I would call time while the ball was in play?  Why don't you read an entire post before jumping to critique mode.

I did. Learn how to communicate effectively. There was no mention by anyone about waiting for the play to stop. Given that the whole OP is about a live-ball situation with play going on, it only makes sense that you were referring to that. If not, the responsibility is yours to explain how your situation is different than the OP's.

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9 hours ago, maven said:

Me too. Also for the same reasons.

Psychologists call it 'priming': by making certain associations in someone's mind, they're quicker to expect it in the future. When we prime coaches to expect confrontation, it makes confrontation more likely.

The content of the plate meeting is short and sweet: introductions, lineups, ground rules, any info required by the league. We can strive to prime coaches with our body language, tone of voice, and attitude to expect professionalism and a smoothly officiated game.

While technically correct, (by definition) .... I wouldn't necessarily say that simply making the statement of "if you have any questions or issues for us, please call time, etc......."

is an example of  "priming" .......  

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

While technically correct, (by definition) .... I wouldn't necessarily say that simply making the statement of "if you have any questions or issues for us, please call time, etc......."

is an example of  "priming" .......  

You're entitled to your opinion. But a common example of priming includes merely mentioning the word 'yellow', which is sufficient to prime people to expect the word 'banana' in a reading passage. Human brains are exceedingly suggestible.

Whatever. Any coach who's going to create a problem is unlikely to be deterred by a pre-scolding at the plate meeting. Even if you don't think it's priming coaches to expect "issues," it's a waste of time.

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1 minute ago, maven said:

You're entitled to your opinion. But a common example of priming includes merely mentioning the word 'yellow', which is sufficient to prime people to expect the word 'banana' in a reading passage. Human brains are exceedingly suggestible.

Whatever. Any coach who's going to create a problem is unlikely to be deterred by a pre-scolding in the plate meeting. Even if you don't think it's priming coaches to expect "issues," it's a waste of time.

And that's what makes it a waste of time to mention it. The ones that listen aren't likely to be the ones that will cause the problem, and the ones that cause a problem likely won't listen.

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7 minutes ago, maven said:

You're entitled to your opinion. But a common example of priming includes merely mentioning the word 'yellow', which is sufficient to prime people to expect the word 'banana' in a reading passage. Human brains are exceedingly suggestible.

Whatever. Any coach who's going to create a problem is unlikely to be deterred by a pre-scolding at the plate meeting. Even if you don't think it's priming coaches to expect "issues," it's a waste of time.

Now now .... while again true, .... it's sufficient to prime people because psychologists consider those words to be closely related, as in "sky", and "blue" ....

The mentioning to coaches to call time and come ask questions if they have one isn't necessarily "related" as in above.

I'm not saying you're wrong, ...I'm simply suggesting it's a little too broad of a brush-stroke....

 

BTW .... I don't do this....there's no reason to do so, in my opinion .....

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On 7/14/2016 at 6:07 AM, maven said:

You don't call time when handling baseballs or taking substitutions?

I'll weigh in on this:

I call time when taking substitutions.  I do not call time when the ball boy brings out baseballs.  I do, of course, call time, when F1 wants a new baseball.

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