Interesting play at first base

[johnnyg08]

 

[Stk004]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

 

So was the first safe call the new mechanic for when a BR misses 1st base? After that I'm completely lost. 

[lawump]

Timing, timing, timing....

[udbrky]

No, I think he thinks oh he's off the bag, but then realized that he "overran" 1b and didn't make an attempt. Just hurried.

[Richvee]

Yep..The oddest "over run" you'll ever see.

[Replacematt]

The call is incorrect (I think; it appears that the final outcome is safe.)

B/R overran 1B on his initial run (missing it.) He went back to retouch, but he only gets one bite at the apple for overrunning. Once he retouches, he leaves the base at his own risk, and should have been out on the tag.

[Stk004]

20 minutes ago, Matt said:

The call is incorrect (I think; it appears that the final outcome is safe.)

B/R overran 1B on his initial run (missing it.) He went back to retouch, but he only gets one bite at the apple for overrunning. Once he retouches, he leaves the base at his own risk, and should have been out on the tag.

This is the same point my dad made when I showed him. What's the group consensus?

[johnnyg08]

I'm eagerly awaiting Brian Hertzog's manifesto on this play.  

[Kevin_K]

With the benefit of time, I think this should be an out.

Take a way the dance steps and replace the action with routine actions and it seems obvious. BR misses 1B on the way past. The standard is that BR has obtained the bag. F3 goes to tag BR who has now stepped on 1B. No appeal has been made, so BR is not out based on either player's actions.

BR steps off 1B and is tagged by F3, runner is out.

[maven]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

The call is incorrect (I think; it appears that the final outcome is safe.)

B/R overran 1B on his initial run (missing it.) He went back to retouch, but he only gets one bite at the apple for overrunning. Once he retouches, he leaves the base at his own risk, and should have been out on the tag.

I agree with this analysis. The right to overrun (though not explicitly addressed in the rule) applies to the initial approach to the base only. Once the runner returns and touches/occupies the base, he's liable to be put out when off base.

[ALStripes17]

So was the first safe call the new mechanic for when a BR misses 1st base? After that I'm completely lost. 

No, the initial safe call is the previous standard (I still haven't seen this new 'no-call' mechanic taught in person).

The safe ruling is for the fact that the BR has acquired the base by passing it; albeit not legally upon proper appeal.

I agree with the previous analyses here that the BR should be safe on the initial pass but out after he touches and leaves the base.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[johnnyg08]

A protest would have been interesting in this case.

[Stk004]

1 minute ago, johnnyg08 said:

A protest would have been interesting in this case.

Crossed my mind not 2 minutes ago 

[Lindsay]

I think "umpire judgment" could sell this play both ways. The difference between these two judgments would be quite significant had there been R3 who touched home plate prior to B1 being tagged, or had F3 tagged first base and/or B1 prior to B1 touching first base, re: BR put out before achieving first base/timing play and, potentially, a fourth out appeal.

1) B1 "missed" first base when he ran by (in my judgment, when he ran past first base), in which case we have an unrelaxed play (if you subscribe to PBUC & J/R) or immediate attempted return to correct a violation (if you subscribe to Wendelstedt) following B1's achievement of 1B and subsequent overrun. In this play, Cron voluntarily putting his hand on the base only to pull it back a second later constitutes an "overslide" after returning to an already-achieved first base, or a non-protected overrun (timeline: B1 reaches, but misses first base => B1 overruns first base [protected overrun, which is superseded by B1's failure to touch first base, as in 5.06(b)(3)(D) NOTE {"<Runner who misses a base> may be put out by tagging the base or by tagging the runner before he returns to the missed base"}] => B1 immediately returns to first base => B1 comes off the base after returning to it): B1 is out.

2) B1 never reached first base in his attempt to avoid the tag and, thus, is liable to be put out if first base is touched (e.g., third out on BR before first base would mean no runs, if there was an R3 who touched home prior to the tag). In this case, U1 has to determine whether B1 is out of the base path. B1's subsequent touch of first base is his first reach of the base, meaning he is subject to overrun protection (timeline: B1 avoids tag, but doesn't achieve first base => B1 finally achieves & touches first base => B1 overruns first base [protected overrun]): B1 is safe. 

The ultimate question is whether B1 simply passing the plane or imaginary line perpendicular to the foul line, which is drawn from the front (or back) edge of first base, is sufficient enough to say that B1 has reached first base (with similar arguments for 2B and 3B). In my opinion, it is (5.05(b)(1) Comment: "If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him").

[johnnyg08]

Solved:

 

http://www.closecallsports.com/2016/07/case-play-2016-6-overrunning-first-base.html#disqus_thread

[zoops]

26 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Solved:

 

http://www.closecallsports.com/2016/07/case-play-2016-6-overrunning-first-base.html#disqus_thread

My head hurts after reading that 

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, zoops said:

My head hurts after reading that 

Yeah, it's heavy.  After reading, I would like to see an simple one or two word solution to the case play at the end.

How it was ruled on the field:

Correct

or 

Incorrect

[zoops]

I think the Cliff Notes version would be that the call should have been an out unless the umpire judged that the base was missed initially due to legally evading the tag attempt (which would require that the BR didn't pass 1B by more than 3 feet).  I think.  

[Stk004]

I'm still confused as to what the correct call is. I think it's out though?

[johnnyg08]

I think @Gil highlighted it for us:

 

[maven]

9 hours ago, Stk004 said:

I'm still confused as to what the correct call is. I think it's out though?

1. The BR is out: having touched 1B, he was tagged while off the base.
2. Had this been the 3rd out and another runner advanced to HP before the out, the run would score: the BR's was NOT retired before he touched 1B (the out came after he touched 1B).

[Stk004]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I think @Gil highlighted it for us:

 

Whoops 

[johnnyg08]

No worries, I didn't see it the first time either.  

I was really hoping that we'd be able to get the out on this.  

I think my head would have exploded had it been explained that he actually got that play right. 

That being said, we haven't seen the 4 billion word manifesto from Hertzog yet.