It's a Rule

[zoops]

I was PU for the 2nd game of a Legion doubleheader.  There had been absolutely no issues in game 1 or 2 and the teams seemed to be pretty easy going and VT had won the first game pretty comfortably.  1st inning ends with the HT F2 grounding out.  HT pitcher warms up with a bench player catching while the catcher gets his gear on.  Pitcher is working fairly fast and gets 5 pitches in to the substitute catcher.  Catcher comes out and VT manager starts barking about how he only gets 5 warmup pitches and they shouldn't benefit from their catcher being lazy.  I look over and say "really? come on guys" and the 3rd base coach who was already out to his spot says "it's a rule."  We get going and the first batter is retired on a groundout and on my way back to the plate I remember that the 3rd base coach has been standing closer to the plate than the coach's box the entire night.  Next batter steps in and I look over to him and say "coach you need to get in the coach's box."  The manager says something like "here we go!" and the 3rd base coach looks away and ignores me.  I just stand there, wait a second and then say "that's a warning coach."  He says "you're going to run me for being 2 steps out of the box?" I say "it's a rule" and stand there a second before he sheepishly steps into the box.  The manager says "this is grade school stuff" and I look over and say "I agree."  No issues the rest of the game.  

I think the NCAA rule book says to allow the warm-up catcher to catch 3 pitches and then to let the catcher get 2 once he gets out there.  Do you use that in all cases?  I guess my stance has been in youth levels to allow the pitcher to throw as long as the catcher is getting ready in a timely fashion.  

[Replacematt]

26 minutes ago, zoops said:

I was PU for the 2nd game of a Legion doubleheader.  There had been absolutely no issues in game 1 or 2 and the teams seemed to be pretty easy going and VT had won the first game pretty comfortably.  1st inning ends with the HT F2 grounding out.  HT pitcher warms up with a bench player catching while the catcher gets his gear on.  Pitcher is working fairly fast and gets 5 pitches in to the substitute catcher.  Catcher comes out and VT manager starts barking about how he only gets 5 warmup pitches and they shouldn't benefit from their catcher being lazy.  I look over and say "really? come on guys" and the 3rd base coach who was already out to his spot says "it's a rule."  We get going and the first batter is retired on a groundout and on my way back to the plate I remember that the 3rd base coach has been standing closer to the plate than the coach's box the entire night.  Next batter steps in and I look over to him and say "coach you need to get in the coach's box."  The manager says something like "here we go!" and the 3rd base coach looks away and ignores me.  I just stand there, wait a second and then say "that's a warning coach."  He says "you're going to run me for being 2 steps out of the box?" I say "it's a rule" and stand there a second before he sheepishly steps into the box.  The manager says "this is grade school stuff" and I look over and say "I agree."  No issues the rest of the game.  

I think the NCAA rule book says to allow the warm-up catcher to catch 3 pitches and then to let the catcher get 2 once he gets out there.  Do you use that in all cases?  I guess my stance has been in youth levels to allow the pitcher to throw as long as the catcher is getting ready in a timely fashion.  

It says five pitches. It doesn't say to whom. If you enforce it, then you don't have this (admittedly grade-school) problem. Let them know when they have two left.

I also don't like the secondary situation here. That's just adding fuel to the fire (which somehow burned out.) They didn't do anything wrong. 

[noumpere]

What the coaches dislike more than enforcing all the picky rules is being shown up. (Hey -- just like us!).

 

So, if you want to make the "if you want me to enforce all the rules" card, do it in a way other than how you did.

 

And -- I enforce the 5 pitch limit (or 8 in OBR game) in every game I do.  If there's a reason NOT to enforce it, then I try to let the teams know in advance, or at the least I use the reasoning AND the explanation that I'll do the same for the other team.

[LRZ]

Under OBR, what penalty do you impose, if this rule is violated?

[noumpere]

For both the "excess pitches" and the "coaching box" the only penalty is EJ for failing to follow the directions of the umpire.

[LRZ]

Especially in leagues without courtesy runners, if the catcher is hustling to put his gear on and the pitcher throws extra warm-up pitches while waiting for his catcher, EJ is extreme and pedantic, in my view, an example of using the rules to create a problem, not solve one. YMMV.

[Replacematt]

8 minutes ago, LRZ said:

Especially in leagues without courtesy runners, if the catcher is hustling to put his gear on and the pitcher throws extra warm-up pitches while waiting for his catcher, EJ is extreme and pedantic, in my view, an example of using the rules to create a problem, not solve one. YMMV.

That's why you let them know when they have two left. You don't have a stopwatch (generally, except in NCAA) so you can fudge the time a bit, but pitches are pitches. If they don't get the hint (younger levels,) ask them if they want to save them for the actual catcher.

[RichMSN]

I always let the warmup catcher take 4 and then I tell him that the catcher will take the last one.

F2 comes out -- I tell him "first one down" and that's what happens.

I *never* allow extra pitches.

[Mudisfun]

I just use the 2 more method; I tell the pitcher and the on-deck. If the back up catcher gets that 2nd throw I have already told him to throw it down... if they do not, oh well.

Batter up, let's go. Catcher says anything I tell him to speed it up next time. and that I will do the same for the other side if they are slow getting out. Has yet to be an issue.

As stated above the coach box issue was just picking at nits and really should/could be avoided. Why open the door when it did not need to be opened?

[maineump]

Which rule set do you work in Legion there? We use, as they say "American League" with a few NCAA rule differences. You can put them on a watch, and enforce it that way. If you have a team that lags getting out there, or has to have a meeting at the dugout before hitting the field, then out comes the stop watch.

Usually let the bench catcher take all but the last one and let the catcher throw it down. In the case of a catcher caught on base or last hitter, I give them a little break, but leave the last one for the regular catcher.

[zoops]

Yeah same as you @maineump

Although I don't think I was really out of line - they wanna whine about little rules, we can do little rules - it probably was one of those things where I should have just said "ok" to their complaining, but it happened.  Probably didn't help that it was a couple of young guns coaching their team - probably made me subconsciously want to show them who's boss.  

[FleasOf1000Camels]

I don't care WHO catches the warm up pitches, so long as they don't expect ME to do it.

[HokieUmp]

On 6/27/2016 at 8:46 AM, noumpere said:

What the coaches dislike more than enforcing all the picky rules is being shown up. (Hey -- just like us!).

 

So, if you want to make the "if you want me to enforce all the rules" card, do it in a way other than how you did.

I don't know, @noumpere, I kind of liked this one.  Regardless of whether they were young guns or not, as expounded later, I like the "you want the rules enforced?  okay, here's your rule, enforced!" response.  Maybe it would depend on how big a horse's [redacted] the guy was about it - if he was low-key, then maybe I wouldn't respond like that.

But I'm not gonna lie:  tossing his own line back at him, when I read that, made me feel all warm inside.  Like Christmas.

[grayhawk]

2 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

I don't know, @noumpere, I kind of liked this one.  Regardless of whether they were young guns or not, as expounded later, I like the "you want the rules enforced?  okay, here's your rule, enforced!" response.  Maybe it would depend on how big a horse's [redacted] the guy was about it - if he was low-key, then maybe I wouldn't respond like that.

But I'm not gonna lie:  tossing his own line back at him, when I read that, made me feel all warm inside.  Like Christmas.

I agree.  While I wouldn't do it myself, I loved the story.  You want to be petty?  Fine, we can do this all day long.

[lawump]

Each level of baseball, at least where I live, has its own culture.  For instance, in high school and American Legion (again, where I live) if the catcher finished the last inning on base (or made the last out) as long as the catcher is hustling in the dugout I let the pitcher throw warm-ups.  When the catcher comes out of the dugout, I say loudly, "last one!  (Catcher's name) throw it down."  I have never, ever had an issue with that.   But, that's the culture of those levels of baseball in my area.

However, in NCAA, the pitches between innings is expected to be strictly enforced.  So, if the pitcher throws three warm-up pitches to someone other than F2, I tell him, "you have two left."  About 80% of pitchers will then wait until F2 comes out to throw their last two warm-ups; the other 20% will throw one more warm-up and then wait for F2 to throw the last warm-up.  Again, I have never had an F1 or head coach complain about that.  It is expected at that level.

It is this difference in the culture of each level to which we (umpires who work multiple levels) need to be attuned .

With that said, the OP definitely handled the situation as a pro umpire would handle it.  I'm not saying that's right or wrong on the Legion level (though, I would have died laughing as the base umpire) I'm just saying a pro umpire would definitely handle this issue in that manner.  The coach/manager is being a POS: I'm am quite sure that the OP did (or would) give the same courtesy to that coach's team.

[zoops]

19 hours ago, lawump said:

Each level of baseball, at least where I live, has its own culture.  For instance, in high school and American Legion (again, where I live) if the catcher finished the last inning on base (or made the last out) as long as the catcher is hustling in the dugout I let the pitcher throw warm-ups.  When the catcher comes out of the dugout, I say loudly, "last one!  (Catcher's name) throw it down."  I have never, ever had an issue with that.   But, that's the culture of those levels of baseball in my area.

I would say this is the exact perception I have in my area as well.  I've worked Legion ball for 15 years, hundreds of games, state tournaments, regional tournaments, and have never once had a coach whine about a pitcher getting an extra warmup or two.  My stance has been the same as yours - I enforce the rule but if a catcher is getting ready in a timely fashion I have let them throw.  Not saying it's the perfect way to do it, just have never had an issue with it.  These guys are new to the area so that may have played a role.  

[VolUmp]

On 6/27/2016 at 9:02 AM, LRZ said:

Especially in leagues without courtesy runners, if the catcher is hustling to put his gear on and the pitcher throws extra warm-up pitches while waiting for his catcher, EJ is extreme and pedantic, in my view, an example of using the rules to create a problem, not solve one. YMMV.

Wow.

Had to look that up.

[noumpere]

It took you 9 or 10 weeks to look it up? 

[BigUmpire]

Nope.

Ignore him if he complains about number of pitches.

If he persists then you take to the next level.

Regarding putting a coach back in the box Remember:

"If you go looking for trouble you will find it.