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Offense causing confusion


bsitg
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I was behind the plate for a LL Majors game.  R3, no out, 2-1 count to the batter (which I announce).  Pitch comes, batter swings and misses, ball gets by catcher and rolls to backstop.  Coaches are yelling, "Go!  Go!".  I believe they are telling R3 to steal home.  However, the batter, becoming confused, runs to 1B even though it is strike 2.  The catcher retrieves the ball, R3 is still at 3B, batter is running toward 1B and the catcher throws to 1B but bad throw goes into right field.  Batter reaches 2B.  R3 scores on overthrow.

I call time, inform the batter it is only strike 2 and put him back in the box.  I also put R3 back on 3B.

By rule I believe it is up to the defense to know the count and not make that throw to "retire" the batter.  Simply hold onto the ball or try and go after R3.  Defense's choice.  But since the catcher did make the throw, the run should have counted, the batter back in the box with a 2-2 count, game continues.

In the older divisions I do I don't believe this ever would have happened, but should it I would allow the run to score.  But since this was a LL Majors game, it didn't sit well with me that the offense should gain an advantage by causing confusion.  In OBR I cannot find anything that addresses this type of situation.  There are rules governing other types of confusion caused by the offense (7.08 (i) and 7.09(d)) but not this specific type of confusion.  Basically I used 9.01 (c) to do what I thought was right considering the level of ball.

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this situation.  Did I mess it up?  Did I get it right?  Is there a rule I am missing someplace?  Again, this is LL which uses OBR for the most part.

I'm comfortable with what I did, as was my partner, the offensive manager and the defensive manager.  There was zero issue with the ruling.  I'm just curious as to what others think.

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This late into the season unless the coaches did something so outlandish to make this a mockery of the game B/R is coming back to the plate and R3 is going to the dugout as the recently scored runner.

As many have said it is up to the players to know what is going on...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would have scored the run as well, but I understand your thought process.  I would actually like to see a rule put in to not allow this type of situation. I've gotten counts wrong before, so while I understand the "catcher should know the count" thought process I also understand that when the BR starts running there are probably fans/coaches yelling all kinds of stuff, and throw it is probably one of the things he is hearing.  So he may react because he was worried he was wrong about the count.  I don't know if this can really be legislated though as you cannot know intent.  But I'm sure with the winning run at 3rd and two outs some busher coach has and will tell his batter to run to first on strike two if it's in the dirt in an attempt to draw a throw.

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56 minutes ago, umpire_scott said:

But I'm sure with the winning run at 3rd and two outs some busher coach has and will tell his batter to run to first on strike two if it's in the dirt in an attempt to draw a throw.

(misread the play -- my mistake)

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the coach would be right to do so -- the batter has the opportunity to advance toward first in this situation.

I imagine he is saying the actual pitch is strike two and the batter is drawing throw on confusion.

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I would have scored the run as well, but I understand your thought process.  I would actually like to see a rule put in to not allow this type of situation. I've gotten counts wrong before, so while I understand the "catcher should know the count" thought process I also understand that when the BR starts running there are probably fans/coaches yelling all kinds of stuff, and throw it is probably one of the things he is hearing.  So he may react because he was worried he was wrong about the count.  I don't know if this can really be legislated though as you cannot know intent.  But I'm sure with the winning run at 3rd and two outs some busher coach has and will tell his batter to run to first on strike two if it's in the dirt in an attempt to draw a throw.

We have enough legislated for us already... the players need to be responsible for the situation.

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1 minute ago, ALStripes17 said:

We have enough legislated for us already... the players need to be responsible for the situation.

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Agreed.  I just hate when runners that are already out  or net yet out put themselves into play.  They should have the responsibility of knowing the situation as well.  And I know many coaches that teach their kids to do this in order to confuse the defense into making a throw.  Just hate bush league stuff so I'm in favor of rules that disallow it.  But I understand this is probably not something that can really be legislated.

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Agreed.  I just hate when runners that are already out  or net yet out put themselves into play.  They should have the responsibility of knowing the situation as well.  And I know many coaches that teach their kids to do this in order to confuse the defense into making a throw.  Just hate bush league stuff so I'm in favor of rules that disallow it.  But I understand this is probably not something that can really be legislated.

I see where you're coming from but even 10-14 year olds are apt to just taking off anyway because the uncaught 3rd strike is still a new rule to them anyway.

Then getting up into 15+ year olds, their expectation is to know how to play the game.

Umpires can help mediate this as previously described. It gives another element to the game and I actually like telling a defensive coach that he doesn't get a bailout with INT... bc he's supposed to .... ya know .... coach

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