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Stk004

What's the Count?

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2 hours ago, lawump said:

True story: I filled in (as a favor when an umpire didn't show) and worked a coaches' pitch (seven year olds) game, by myself, a few years ago.  In typical kiddie land fashion, the ball was being thrown all over the place.  I thought there was going to be a play at the plate so I hustle there, only to have the throw go to F3 (I admit, I stink at one man mechanics.  LOL.). F3 is standing 10-feet off the bag or so, when he swipes at the B/R who is trying to retreat to first.  I have no idea if there is a tag or not (I'm totally straight-lined).  So, not seeing a tag I called "safe".  Defensive coach says, "blue, he got him."  Just then, the first base coach says, "blue, he got him.  It was a good play."  I said, "no problem, then he's out."  Both daddies coaches say, "good job, blue."

The game proceeds without incident.  Besides learning that I will never work below high school varsity again (it's way too tough!), I learned that if all the participants ask you to consider the fact that you may have been wrong...you may want to stop and consider the possibility that you may have been wrong.

You probably missed one obstruction and one trail runner passing the lead. You gotta keep your head on a swivel in T-ball. They deserve 4 man.

Edited to add: you probably missed a coach Int also

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6 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You probably missed one obstruction and one trail runner passing the lead. You gotta keep your head on a swivel in T-ball. They deserve 4 man.

Edited to add: you probably missed a coach Int also

I admit that I'm just not there yet in my abilities to work that level!

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8 hours ago, lawump said:

I admit that I'm just not there yet in my abilities to work that level!

If you study, eat right, and work hard, you can probably work your way up to T-ball one day. Just keep putting in the work and trust the process!

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On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 1:44 PM, beerguy55 said:

I'll give you the situation I had.

Pitcher has walked the bases loaded, and then goes 2-0 on next batter.

Coach calls time, talks to pitcher, returns to bench, leaves pitcher in game.

Pitcher throws two more balls.   Batter jogs to first...all runners advance.  Catcher tosses ball back to pitcher...pitcher is dejected.  Coach is shouting words of encouragement.

Umpire calls time, and says it's only 2-0...sends the batter back AND all runners back.  I argue, he talks to base ump.

Base ump also, somehow, has the count at 2-0  (it's quite obvious he wasn't paying attention, and wasn't tracking).

In this situation a reasonable umpire needs to be willing to look at ALL the facts to see that maybe, gasp, he made a mistake:

1. OT coach reminds ump that DT coach called time during an at bat, not after one (ie. batters didn't change at that time - which is likely why he reset the counter)

2. all four base runners advanced without hesitation - is it likely they all missed the count by two pitches?

3. not single member of the defensive team - especially the pitcher/catcher - thought it was odd to see base runners, and batter, advancing on a 2-0 count  (sure, on occasion players - even whole teams - miss THREE balls vs four balls...but have you ever seen a whole team of players miss TWO pitches?)

4. not a single coach, nor parent, of the defensive team thought it was odd to see base runners and batter advancing on a 2-0 count

5. official scorekeeper also has four balls

He not only refused to look at the situation reasonably, to assess his mistake...he then compounded it with a second mistake by making the base runners to return, saying it wasn't fair.

But his clicker said there were only two balls.

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 1:44 PM, beerguy55 said:

You're willing to let your fragile ego get in the way of getting something right?

 

The OP and this are different.  In this sitch I would listen if both sides are telling me the same story and if I think I kicked it I make the change. The OP was one team saying what they thought the count was and the question I commented on was related to that. If a team is telling me the count is one thing and I'm sure what I have is right, I go with what I have. I'm not always right but I am right more often than coaches think I'm wrong.

As far as the "fragile ego" comment, my ego isn't fragile it rages sometimes.  I want to get ALL my calls right! I work very hard to put myself in the best position to do that. I read, go to camps, talk to mentors, get evaluated, get feedback and self evaluate all so I can get my call right. But just because everyone disagrees with me doesn't make me wrong. If I have doubt over a call or a question I will use everything at my disposal to correct but I won't cave just to make someone feel better! I don't "get help" when a coach asks just to appease him if it's not needed or required. If that makes me difficult to work with...ok.

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9 minutes ago, Specks said:

The OP was one team saying what they thought the count was and the question I commented on was related to that.

No, that's not what happened.  It's right above in this very thread.

mbates said

"Ok now what about this? PU and BU have same count.

Score keeper plus each coach has same count but different from yours. Who wins? (We gave in)"

Your response was

Me. Books and coaches don't pay close enough attention to override me or my click.... indicator.

 

So, my response to you was directly related to this specific exchange.

13 minutes ago, Specks said:

As far as the "fragile ego" comment, my ego isn't fragile it rages sometimes.  I want to get ALL my calls right! I work very hard to put myself in the best position to do that.

This isn't really a call.  It's a dispute over fact.  Two coaches and the scorekeeper tell you the count is 2-0...your clicker (and memory) says it's 2-1.  It's not a discussion of judgment, or even rules, so it doesn't really matter how much you read and study, or how good your position on the field is.   What's more likely - that they all forgot/missed a strike you called?  Or that you perhaps forgot to reset your clicker after the last batter?

18 minutes ago, Specks said:

But just because everyone disagrees with me doesn't make me wrong.

No, but it should give you pause to at least reflect - why do they all believe this one fact  and I believe something different. (again, I'm not talking about judgment calls...or even rule disputes).  You better be able to go through each pitch.  It's a little easier to explain the difference between 2-1 and 1-2 (no, I called that first pitch a strike)...a little more difficult to explain why one set of people thinks three pitches were thrown, and the umpire believes there were 2, or 4, or 5 thrown.

I've seen too many umpires forget to click - especially on foul balls and wild pitches - to think the indicator is anything close to infallible.  Hell, MLB umps have done it.   And at the amateur level far too often I've seen base umps who don't follow the count, so they're no help in disputes...except to say "I can't dispute your count", which somehow gets interpreted to "he has the same count I do".  

If you're certain you're right, then go with it...but go with it because you're certain you're right, and that your memory is right (ideally, you can even determine why the coaches believe differently than you do), not because you don't want to be wrong, and not because "the clicker says 2-1, it must be 2-1".

 

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Your situation is different that the OP or the one I answered. As I said in your specific situation I would get additional feedback because that's a big difference between 2 pitches and 4 pitches. My original statment was to mean that coaches and fans are more likely to lose focus than I am, doesn't mean I won't or havent just less likely. Generally when there's a discreapancy over the count it's the strike vs ball thats the point of the OP and it can be cleared up quickly. Your's is more complicated. Hopefully the umpire is willing to listen but if he isn't and is adament that he's right then you have to go with that.

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 1:23 PM, Specks said:

In this sitch I would listen if both sides are telling me the same story and if I think I kicked it I make the change.

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 2:02 PM, beerguy55 said:

If you're certain you're right, then go with it...but go with it because you're certain you're right, and that your memory is right

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 1:23 PM, Specks said:

If a team is telling me the count is one thing and I'm sure what I have is right, I go with what I have

That's what I said.

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Anyone catch batter going to 1B on ball 3 last night in Cubs-Dodgers? PU seen asking U1 if he has 3-2 as well and they bring him back.

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3 minutes ago, udbrky said:

Anyone catch batter going to 1B on ball 3 last night in Cubs-Dodgers? PU seen asking U1 if he has 3-2 as well and they bring him back.

yea I saw it, didn't see the consult with U1 in real time

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7 hours ago, udbrky said:

Anyone catch batter going to 1B on ball 3 last night in Cubs-Dodgers? PU seen asking U1 if he has 3-2 as well and they bring him back.

don't think he was consulting. He was indicating the count in the direction of the batter who had wondered down to first base. As a Cubs fan, I just wished it happened with a runner on first, so that he might have been tempted to wander off the base.

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