Handle your business and keep me out of it...

[Mudisfun]

Working a LL Majors game last night with a buddy who is typically a solid umpire but who had 2 plays which came up that changed the cadence of the game.

I am PU for this game. 

Play one... inning outs do not matter. Visitors are winning 8-0 at this point in the game.

VT batter hits a ground ball to F6 who fields and overthrows F3. I follow the overthrow which stays in play off the fence. F3 throws to 2nd and the B/R appears to beat the throw from my angle but all I really have is legs, elbows and people in the way. Next thing I know is my partner is calling the runner out; ok I think he saw a tag, runner off the bag, whatever... I do not particularly care why there is an out so I am only mildly curious why they VT HC is meeting with my partner. Assuming he is telling the coach what he saw so I am pretty surprised when he motions to me that he wants to meet. 

"I have the runner performing a head first slide" (For those of you not familiar with LL head first slides progressing to the base is not legal in Majors and below; only retreating is it legal... ) and since the VT HC does not agree he wants me to help him out... Partner all I have is asses and elbows and people in my line of sight. I did not see the manner in which the B/R slid into the base but I am staring at the runner and the entire front of his uniform is clean. Other than mentioning the uniform I have nothing for you but since your the one making this call either confirm your call that you saw a HFS or not. He calls the runner out and of course the VT fans think this is horse pucky... 

 

Play 2... same: inning/outs do not matter but the HT is catching up... 8-4 or 8-5 at this point.

B/R hits a easy play to the infield F5 or F6, I do not recall which specific fielder but the throw to F3 for what should be routine is off line and pulls F3 off the back of the bag towards R/F. F3 gets possession of the ball but does not realize he was pulled farther off the bag than he thought so he is stabbing with his foot trying to find the base for the putout. U1 is in good position and I am following B/R up the line... B/R and F3 finally decide to get to the base about the same time and U1 does an emphatic safe mechanic; I have no opinion on this call as F3 is trying to hit the backside of 1st and with the BR in the way I have ZERO view if he actually ever tagged the base.

Same issue... DHC comes out arguing that F3 no questions asked tagged that base before B/R got there so here comes my partner to me again... Basically the same conversation as the first play. Partner you were 10 feet from the play with the angle and the view of the backside of the base. I have front/top/sides of the base but there is no way I can see through the runner and the physical base to see if F3 touched the back of the base. Again my partner confirms his call and of course since it went against the VT again the stands erupt in outrage (parents, right?) and the VT coaches are unhappy. My partner had to calm the coaches down but nothing to the point of ejection...

Game continues and we finish full 6 innings with a final score of 7-8... stranding a runner on 3rd which was the tying run and we beat it off the field as quickly as possible.

 

Our conversation in the lot went basically like this... In play one if you see that slide and call it you need to stick with it; calling me over unless you're just verifying the rule or penalty makes you look undecided on what you called. In play 2 I had the same thing. You're right there, you saw what you saw. Calling me in again makes no sense. This is not a question of you being straight lined or asking about a possible swipe tag where your looking for information; you are looking for me to confirm or validate what you saw and called.

I am all for getting the calls right but just meeting to meet so that the coaches think we are in agreement on a call is not what getting together is about. I have no issue meeting and asking me what I saw but when you have a call you need to own; when you are in the perfect position and see everything this is the time to tell the coaches I saw it, that is the call and move on. As for the HFS if your calling that then call it. Signal that is an illegal slide and bang the out... do not drag your partners into it to get a committee agreement. These two indecisive calls changed the entire tempo of the game. The first call for the HFS seriously eroded the confidence we had built during the game since it was not obvious to anyone on the field that the B/R did in fact slide head first and the 2nd call which I think was correct BTW just sealed the deal. I think play one was pretty boarder line as to HFS and I would not have called it unless I was 100% and then there is no way I am going for help on it. The 2nd call when he came to me just killed all of his credibility and dragged me right down the tube with him since we live and die as a team.

 

Am I wrong in my perception of him coming to me for help? I was honest with him both times and told him I had nothing to offer that was different than what he had. Would you have gone to your partner in these situations? My thought is I would not have gotten together on either of these but I also do a ton of solo games where there is no one to go to so that may be clouding my thought process. The rest of the game was uneventful and overall was fine.

 

. 

[MPLSMatt]

You are 100% correct.  On the first one,  if you (the you being your partner) aren't 100% sure that you saw a violation of the rule, than you didn't see a violation.  This isn't a ball strike call or a banger on the bases where you have to call something - it's a violation.  If you didn't see it, say nothing.  Sounds like over-officiating to me. 

And on the second one, if you somehow did see something that warranted a change of the call, good luck explaining to the OHC why a guy who is 55 feet away is overruling a guy who's right on top of it. 

 

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, MPLSMatt said:

You are 100% correct.  On the first one,  if you (the you being your partner) aren't 100% sure that you saw a violation of the rule, than you didn't see a violation.  This isn't a ball strike call or a banger on the bases where you have to call something - it's a violation.  If you didn't see it, say nothing.  Sounds like over-officiating to me. 

And on the second one, if you somehow did see something that warranted a change of the call, good luck explaining to the OHC why a guy who is 55 feet away is overruling a guy who's right on top of it. 

 

 

 

 

Are you dissing @Mudisfun? He was 30 feet away

[Stk004]

Just out of curiosity, a HFS seems pretty straight forward to me.... what does a borderline HFS look like? 

[Mudisfun]

48 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Just out of curiosity, a HFS seems pretty straight forward to me.... what does a borderline HFS look like? 

Wonderful question... The answer I received after the game was the B/R was going HF and then tried to pull out... I guess some aborted semi slide? I did not see it as I was following the overthrow and when I turned with the ball: just saw feet, people, etc...

[Stk004]

1 hour ago, Mudisfun said:

Wonderful question... The answer I received after the game was the B/R was going HF and then tried to pull out... I guess some aborted semi slide? I did not see it as I was following the overthrow and when I turned with the ball: just saw feet, people, etc...

Interesting. I would imagine your observation of the jersey being clean on the front would have been a telltale sign but I wasn't there nor am I your partner so that's just my 

[ricka56]

VT is ahead 8-0 and play 1 and play 2 go against him. And he's making two stinks ? 

Sometimes the path of least resistance is to go ask your partner to appease the coach. If I have an inexperienced, I don't have a problem with him coming to me. Most of our discussion is about how he is going to handle the coach on the wrong of a call. But you say that your "buddy who is typically a solid umpire" shouldn't be using you for a crutch and pulling you under the bus with him. I don't think you said what your partner had to say about calling you in for those plays. Did he own up that he shouldn't have done what he did? 

One riot...one Ranger 

[Mudisfun]

At the after action talk at the car we discussed going for help where there is a possibility for help. I think he saw my point which is unless there is a reason going for help did not add anything to the discussion other than make him look unsure of himself especially in these 2 types of scenarios. HFS you saw it, call it. If not or not sure let it go.