PU Covering Second Play at 3rd (2-man)

[Welpe]

Does your association or group have the PU cover a second play in the infield at 3rd? My previous one did but my new group does not which was a change for me.

Also, out of curiosity, what is the 2-man CCA mechanic on this?

[Haid D' Salaami]

it depends? Did the BU go out on a play? If so PU has everything.

 

If Bu did not go out he has everything on the bases.

Also with R1. or R1 & R3 ...this is a rotation where the PU would cover 3rd ( unless he had a F/F on the 1st baseline)

 

This is CCA BTW

[Jimurray]

39 minutes ago, Welpe said:

Does your association or group have the PU cover a second play in the field at 3rd? My previous one did but my new group does not which was a change for me.

Also, out of curiosity, what is the 2-man CCA mechanic on this?

With only R1, with a DP ground ball, if your association covers the FPSR from the 3B side of the mound (as CCA does), then the PU would have the play at 3B if ball and original R1 end up there. 

[Terricko Henderson]

On a rotation (r1 and a batted ball)yes the PU has the play at 3b

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[Umpire in Chief]

I have heard this "rotation" play and have worked with some people who use it. 

That said I do not like it. 

I feel the second play at 3rd call should always be the BU and here's why.

Even with a delay/slow play, I have very little confidence that 99% of umpires would be able to beat R2 to 3rd and be set and in proper positioning for the play at third.

This is one of those situations where as a BU you just have to umpire and know the situation so that you don't over-commit to the (hopefully) routine call at 1st, then be prepared for the closer play at third.

As a PU, my best advice would be to stay put, but YELL at me "Warren, Play at third" or something of the like to let me know what's happening behind me. 

 

[Welpe]

1 hour ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

it depends? Did the BU go out on a play? If so PU has everything.

What I meant to write, and have since corrected, is "PU cover a second play in the infield at 3rd." In other words, a play where the ball never leaves the infield. 

Thank you for the CCA mechanic.

As far as FPSR with an R1, we have the PU going to the first base side of the mound.

Warren, I'm not a big fan of the mechanic either but it's what I was used to and was just curious to see how other groups handled it.

I'm not asking how I should handle this play, I already know how my group wants this covered. I'm asking how other groups do it.

[Jimurray]

25 minutes ago, Umpire in Chief said:

I have heard this "rotation" play and have worked with some people who use it. 

That said I do not like it. 

I feel the second play at 3rd call should always be the BU and here's why.

Even with a delay/slow play, I have very little confidence that 99% of umpires would be able to beat R2 to 3rd and be set and in proper positioning for the play at third.

This is one of those situations where as a BU you just have to umpire and know the situation so that you don't over-commit to the (hopefully) routine call at 1st, then be prepared for the closer play at third.

As a PU, my best advice would be to stay put, but YELL at me "Warren, Play at third" or something of the like to let me know what's happening behind me. 

 

If you are starting the play with R2 I know of no reputable mechanics that have the PU take 3B on a ground ball to the infield.

[umpstu]

In cifss the pu does not cover r1 to 3rd if the ball doesn't leave the infield.  This mechanic was put into effect last year.  Cifss is trying to come up with a mechanics manual that makes sense.  Why, when bases are empty, would you have the PU cover the br going to 3rd and the bu running across the mound to get to home?  Odds are, if it's me, that runner will beat my old decrepit butt to home.  It has finally dawned on me that I am at a minimum 35 years older than the college players I umpire and even the hairy kids with beards look like babies.  Help me out here brothers.

 

[Cav]

57 minutes ago, umpstu said:

It has finally dawned on me that I am at a minimum 35 years older than the college players I umpire and even the hairy kids with beards look like babies.  Help me out here brothers.

 

Have you ever stopped play and told the kid coaching 1B to get a helmet only to find out HIS kid is on deck?  Ouch!

[Haid D' Salaami]

4 hours ago, Terricko Henderson said:

On a rotation (r1 and a batted ball)yes the PU has the play at 3b

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Please note... a batted ball that has left the infield...

[Jimurray]

4 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

Please note... a batted ball that has left the infield...

PBUC and, I think, Jim Evans normally have the PU cover 3B with R1 and a ball hit to the infield and R1 is not put out at 2B and a play develops at 3B. Some variations of course if a ball is on the 1B line or near HP or R1 is put out at 2B. CCA has the PU cover the FPSR on the 3B side of the mound and thus take R1 into 3B if that develops.

[umpstu]

6 hours ago, Cav said:

Have you ever stopped play and told the kid coaching 1B to get a helmet only to find out HIS kid is on deck?  Ouch!

I've actually gone to the bullpen and told the kid he needs head protection if he squats down, only to find out he's a college grad and now a coach. ha

[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, umpstu said:

I've actually gone to the bullpen and told the kid he needs head protection if he squats down, only to find out he's a college grad and now a coach. ha

Been there.  But we used to have a tool that would allow us to sidebar without hijacking the tread. What happened to it? Anyway, I've now joined the hijack. 

[ricka56]

We discussed this in a recent thread. Because FPSR is seen better from near 1B side of the mound, our association has PU there for a batted ground ball with R1. This gives PU no time to get in position for a play at 3B. So we have BU getting that 2nd play at 3B.

[Jimurray]

21 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

We discussed this in a recent thread. Because FPSR is seen better from near 1B side of the mound, our association has PU there for a batted ground ball with R1. This gives PU no time to get in position for a play at 3B. So we have BU getting that 2nd play at 3B.

In that case, why not have the PU take the call at 1B and leave the BU to call 2B and FPSR violations? CC postulated this a few years ago. It has crossed my mind also but I have not been tempted to experiment with it. I have, however experimented with taking the FPSR from the 1B side of the mound. I do not like it. 

[ricka56]

12 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

In that case, why not have the PU take the call at 1B and leave the BU to call 2B and FPSR violations? CC postulated this a few years ago. It has crossed my mind also but I have not been tempted to experiment with it. I have, however experimented with taking the FPSR from the 1B side of the mound. I do not like it. 

I have mentioned CC suggestion that PU take the play at 1B to association members and found little enthusiasm for that change. It would be drastic change from BU getting the banger at 1B. Coaches and spectators who's call goes against them are going to blame this new mechanic for them getting jobbed (even when the call was correct).

 I think 1B side of the mound is the only place to get some angle on whether R1 slide straight into 2B. The other disadvantage for PU to be on 1B side of the mound is that you have PU and BU in relatively close proximity to each other...aesthetically not a good look.

[Cav]

18 hours ago, Jimurray said:

In that case, why not have the PU take the call at 1B and leave the BU to call 2B and FPSR violations? CC postulated this a few years ago. It has crossed my mind also but I have not been tempted to experiment with it. I have, however experimented with taking the FPSR from the 1B side of the mound. I do not like it. 

During summer ball, I have used CC's suggested mechanic.  Conclusion: Great look on both ends of routine plays; partners tend to neither ask nor have any help; great coverage on ensuing snowball fights, but lose some angle on overthrows that tend to occur more frequently in open parks (all happen with regularity in my games); and, crew felt like proverbial ducks out of water because the mechanic is so seldom used, if at all for most.  

Our HS association preaches to strictly follow the NFHS UM, for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health.  Actually participation varies.

But, think of what must happen for R1 to advance to 3B on a batted ball to the IF: D makes no/late play at 2B due to an error, ambivalence, or stupidity; R1 busts through trying for an obstruction call or gets up because 3B coach sends him on a overthrow or train wreck at 1B (there probably are more situations wherein R1 advances to 3B on a batted ball to the IF, but I'm still on only my 3d cup of coffee.) 

NFHS UM says BU has the calls at all bags and PU has the help on all of BU's calls.  PU also has primary on overthrows on either side, and all calls at the plate.  If angle still trumps distance, then the hill is the place PU wants to be, or at least near it.  PU has to stick with action at 2B looking for obstruction/interference if a throw takes BU's attention toward 1B, or at least until it's time to look for a pulled foot/swipe tag at 1B in case BU needs help.  PU's responsibilities at 2B, then 1B, then HP and anytime for overthrows to either side would slightly favor his positioning on the 1B side of the hill.  The angles are still good and his proximity to the most likely calls in sequence enhance a coach's confidence.

Yeah, right!

    

 

       

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Cav said:

During summer ball, I have used CC's suggested mechanic.  Conclusion: Great look on both ends of routine plays; partners tend to neither ask nor have any help; great coverage on ensuing snowball fights, but lose some angle on overthrows that tend to occur more frequently in open parks (all happen with regularity in my games); and, crew felt like proverbial ducks out of water because the mechanic is so seldom used, if at all for most.  

Our HS association preaches to strictly follow the NFHS UM, for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health.  Actually participation varies.

But, think of what must happen for R1 to advance to 3B on a batted ball to the IF: D makes no/late play at 2B due to an error, ambivalence, or stupidity; R1 busts through trying for an obstruction call or gets up because 3B coach sends him on a overthrow or train wreck at 1B (there probably are more situations wherein R1 advances to 3B on a batted ball to the IF, but I'm still on only my 3d cup of coffee.) 

NFHS UM says U2 has the calls at all bags and U1 has the help on all of U2's calls.  U1 also has primary on overthrows on either side, and all calls at the plate.  If angle still trumps distance, then the hill is the place U1 wants to be, or at least near it.  U1 has to stick with action at 2B looking for obstruction/interference if a throw takes U2's attention toward 1B, or at least until it's time to look for a pulled foot/swipe tag at 1B in case U2 needs help.  U1's responsibilities at 2B, then 1B, then HP and anytime for overthrows to either side would slightly favor his positioning on the 1B side of the hill.  The angles are still good and his proximity to the most likely calls in sequence enhance a coach's confidence.

Yeah, right!

    

 

       

 

Sidebar: Would you mind doing a "find/change" to make U1 = PU and U2 = BU or U1;)

[Welpe]

20 hours ago, umpstu said:

In cifss the pu does not cover r1 to 3rd if the ball doesn't leave the infield.  This mechanic was put into effect last year.  Cifss is trying to come up with a mechanics manual that makes sense.  Why, when bases are empty, would you have the PU cover the br going to 3rd and the bu running across the mound to get to home? 

 

Our association (in CIF NCS) made a few changes to the Fed manual as well. The BU has the BR all the way around with the bases empty. That makes much more sense to me.

Thanks for the discussion folks. 

[Cav]

6 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Sidebar: Would you mind doing a "find/change" to make U1 = PU and U2 = BU or U1;)

You got it; I'm a team player.  Now could you please do a "find/change" to make U1 = PU and U2 = BU or U1;) in my quote in your post?

 

[blue23ll]

You might recall that CC put forth the idea of starting in B, calling from behind the mound when working one man, as well as the PU taking the back end of the DP. As for covering third, in 2 man, there are two situations where the PU covers third, 1) runner on 1st, or 1st and 3rd, ball in the outfield, runner and ball come into 3rd and 2) runners 1st and 2nd, fly ball and runner on 2nd tagging and advancing to third with a throw. Be sure to pre-game this or you might find your plate partner sitting at third with you there too. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, blue23ll said:

You might recall that CC put forth the idea of starting in B, calling from behind the mound when working one man, as well as the PU taking the back end of the DP. As for covering third, in 2 man, there are two situations where the PU covers third, 1) runner on 1st, or 1st and 3rd, ball in the outfield, runner and ball come into 3rd and 2) runners 1st and 2nd, fly ball and runner on 2nd tagging and advancing to third with a throw. Be sure to pre-game this or you might find your plate partner sitting at third with you there too. 

As for covering third, have you read the thread and some CCA and PBUC references? As for CC advocating B with no one on,  that was in two man and it hasn't gained traction but if the guy I work with with bad knees wants the bases that's where he should be. Otherwise he stays at the plate and I got everything else. Sometimes you have to adapt. As far as one man, I don't where ball bags on the field and the fans, coaches and payers can call balls and strikes from anywhere other than behind the plate. You refine your craft with every experience behind the plate. If you make a game fee calling behind the mound with ball bags you just made a paycheck.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Jimurray

[JaxRolo]

it depends? Did the BU go out on a play? If so PU has everything.

 

If Bu did not go out he has everything on the bases.

Also with R1. or R1 & R3 ...this is a rotation where the PU would cover 3rd ( unless he had a F/F on the 1st baseline)

 

This is CCA BTW

New HS rotation this year has PU covering 3rd with no one on or R3 only.

3-man

[Kevin_K]

1 hour ago, JaxRolo said:

 

New HS rotation this year has PU covering 3rd with no one on or R3 only.

3-man

That's been the mechanic in NJ for a few years. Sucks if you are U1 and have consecutive rotations where you need to cover HP on the backside of the play.

My understanding is that the change was made because of the more corpulent members of the umpiring brethren who cannot get to 3B when in A to cover a potential play on BR.  

[JaxRolo]

That's been the mechanic in NJ for a few years. My understanding is that the change was made because of the more corpulent members of the umpiring brethren who cannot get to 3B when in A to cover a potential play on BR.  

Good point