Calling a step balk from the B position?

[grayhawk]

Working a high school game last night and I'm on the bases.  In the top of the first inning with R1, with me in the B position, the right-handed pitcher attempted several pick-offs where I thought he just spun on his free foot, gaining no distance at all towards first base.  Since this was just an off-season game and nobody complained, I left it alone since this is generally a call that PU should be making.  I went in between innings to see if he saw it and judged it to be okay, or if he just missed it and he said didn't notice anything.  That pitcher didn't come back out for the second inning, so there was no way for him to get another look at it.

If it's a game that matters, and the PU doesn't call it, would you?

[maven]

Working a high school game last night and I'm on the bases.  In the top of the first inning with R1, with me in the B position, the right-handed pitcher attempted several pick-offs where I thought he just spun on his free foot, gaining no distance at all towards first base.  Since this was just an off-season game and nobody complained, I left it alone since this is generally a call that PU should be making.  I went in between innings to see if he saw it and judged it to be okay, or if he just missed it and he said didn't notice anything.  That pitcher didn't come back out for the second inning, so there was no way for him to get another look at it.

If it's a game that matters, and the PU doesn't call it, would you?

I would, and I have. For that particular step balk — spinning on his foot with no distance — it's not difficult for any umpire to see it.

The difficult one to see is the one where F1 gains distance but the direction is on or near the 45° line. Both umpires in 2-umpire mechanics get straightlined on that call.

[grayhawk]

I would, and I have. For that particular step balk — spinning on his foot with no distance — it's not difficult for any umpire to see it.

The difficult one to see is the one where F1 gains distance but the direction is on or near the 45° line. Both umpires in 2-umpire mechanics get straightlined on that call.

I agree.  As long as you're sure, then "see a balk, call a balk" should be the general guideline.

[Kevin_K]

Working a high school game last night 

as I await the "Storm of the Century"........ I am so jealous

[grayhawk]

as I await the "Storm of the Century"........ I am so jealous

Worked 3 in the last 2 days actually.  

Working a college alumni game next weekend and the college regular season starts right after that.

[Kevin_K]

Worked 3 in the last 2 days actually.  

Working a college alumni game next weekend and the college regular season starts right after that.

You do understand that salt in the wounds hurts even more, right?

[Richvee]

You do understand that salt in the wounds hurts even more, right?

We're due for a break this spring in the weather..maybe we actually get a pre season in. If that happens,we're only about 7 weeks away.

[grayhawk]

Of course, El Nino may totally screw my season, so there's that.

[Cato the Younger]

Working a high school game last night and I'm on the bases.  In the top of the first inning with R1, with me in the B position, the right-handed pitcher attempted several pick-offs where I thought he just spun on his free foot, gaining no distance at all towards first base.  Since this was just an off-season game and nobody complained, I left it alone since this is generally a call that PU should be making.  I went in between innings to see if he saw it and judged it to be okay, or if he just missed it and he said didn't notice anything.  That pitcher didn't come back out for the second inning, so there was no way for him to get another look at it.

If it's a game that matters, and the PU doesn't call it, would you?

You are going to catch a lot of heat calling a balk here if the pivot foot is effectively behind the nonpiviot foot when he releases. Most pitchers that do this effectively jump turn to make this move. In my area, a jump turn is not considered a balk at the high school level even if he does not gain ground. 

Sure you could balk him for not gaining ground, but then his coach is going to be eagle eyeing the other pitcher looking for any little thing that guy does making for a long night at the ball park looking for every little thing the other teams pitchers are doing. This is sometimes fun to a new umpire but grows old real fast when it's "battle royal night" at the ball park with you showing everyone your superior rule knowledge.

It is an easy pass for me and a much leading to quieter night at the ball park (like you had) with a chance for everyone to go home happy. I don't avoid calling balks, but I am not looking to call them when you need to do a pitching clinic for everyone to understand what you are balking.

I would pass on balking this and wait for a real balk..... like not stopping in the set position or faking to first.  

Edited January 23, 2016 by Cato the Younger

[maven]

I'm surprised to hear that there are areas where this move is not a balk. This is news to me, though I don't claim to be a sociologist of umpiring.

I do not regard the "spin balk" (really a species of step balk) as a "technical" balk (like some of the "flinch" balks that Davidson likes to call in MLB), because unlike "technical" balks, this move confers a real advantage. It is faster to spin than to step, and harder for runners to pick up. HS and youth pitchers can be twitchy, and if our philosophy for start/stop were as strict as MLB, we might never finish some games. A no-stop balk is also well known, and the rule prohibiting spin balks is less well known; but that's no reason to skip enforcing it.

And though I do recognize the game management implications of nitpicky calls, I don't think keeping coaches happy is ever the primary consideration for whether to make any given call. I'm not accusing Cato of thinking so, but his post doesn't mention any other rationale.

[Kevin_K]

I agree with much of what @maven says in this and many other cases.

Just because a coach does not know about a rule does not give umpires leeway to not enforce the rules. While the spin balk that gains no distance may not be something that is called often, it may be more because there are many umpires who are not aware of it, do not look for it, or go along to get along.

When I have called it and have a coach questioned me, I have explained the call, just like any other situation that a coach may be ignorant of. 

It makes me wonder @Cato the Younger, are there other rules in your area that are not enforced? For example, is FPSR? Most coaches are not really knowledgeable of it so they might question every slide for the rest of the game. It might make for a quiet night if we allow the runners to "break up two" at 2B. What about illegal bats? Could you imagine the hornet's nest you might have to deal with if Johnny Slugger's precious bat is deemed illegal and his manger asks you to check every bat that the other team brings into the batter's box?

I would rather hone my game management skills by answering the questions and shutting down the nonsense when coaches or players act like idiots. I am paid to enforce the rules, whether I like them or not. How I enforce them and how I communicate has a lot to do with the reactions I receive.

[ricka56]

How much distance does F1 have to gain to be legal ? If RHP F1 is spinning on his left foot heal, the front of his foot is spinning towards 1B. Is that not enough distance? if not, why not ? I would not want to say that F1 gained absolutely no distance unless I was sure. I'm not picking that booger.

 

[maven]

I think PBUC has a philosophy that "distance" requires the foot to leave the footprint. Any part of the foot returning to the prior footprint fails to qualify.

"Direction" requires that the foot move more toward the base thrown/feinted to than to any other base.

[Cato the Younger]

I'm surprised to hear that there are areas where this move is not a balk. This is news to me, though I don't claim to be a sociologist of umpiring.

I do not regard the "spin balk" (really a species of step balk) as a "technical" balk (like some of the "flinch" balks that Davidson likes to call in MLB), because unlike "technical" balks, this move confers a real advantage. It is faster to spin than to step, and harder for runners to pick up. HS and youth pitchers can be twitchy, and if our philosophy for start/stop were as strict as MLB, we might never finish some games. A no-stop balk is also well known, and the rule prohibiting spin balks is less well known; but that's no reason to skip enforcing it.

And though I do recognize the game management implications of nitpicky calls, I don't think keeping coaches happy is ever the primary consideration for whether to make any given call. I'm not accusing Cato of thinking so, but his post doesn't mention any other rationale.

I want to make it quite clear that I'm not an umpire that avoids making the tough call just to have a quiet night at the ballpark. I think more force play slides in federation baseball should be called at second base by most umpires, and I do not shy away from making that type of a call. I also make pitcher stop in the set position.  I also have probably called more batter interferences with catchers throwing to second base than many of my colleagues. These types of calls don't foster quiet nights at the ballpark when you make them.

But I think many umpires also head to the ballpark looking to show off their subtle knowledge of various rules which causes more trouble than it solves.

The type of call that I generally pass on is the type of call when you make it everybody is kind of confused and not understanding what happened when the umpire makes the call.  Then as I indicated above the umpire is conducting of rules clinic explaining to everybody what in their mind they thought happened. Balks to me are like false starts in football they pretty much call themselves (if you as the umpire are paying attention and not looking at the hot mom in the stands) If you need to start explaining to everyone including knowledgeable pitching coaches what the kid did wrong I think that is solid evidence that this might be the type of technical balk referred to above that should just be ignored.

It's different when you work in specific organization and they've looked at a scenario and made a specific ruling that everyone's aware of. Very few of these situations exist in high school baseball. The hybrid pitching position is a great example. Looking at the kid it was difficult to tell sometimes if he was in the set or wind up position as the hybrid position was taught more often. Now their specific guidelines to make an accurate ruling of what pitching position he is in and the coaches are well aware of this situation and interpretation. 

Trust me this type of move has been done thousands of times by pitchers in high school baseball games and like in the OP no one says boo when it happens. If a coach complains it's usually a "Technical Tommy" trying to gain an edge for his team and he would be arguing with you more aggressively if you balked his kid for doing the same thing.

Making a ruling when the catcher interferes with the batter and explaining the options to the participants that's good umpiring. Looking for a reason to balk a kid in this situation I think is being way too technical if his pivot foot ends up behind the non-pivot foot when making the release. If asked about the move I would interpret it as a jump turn and just move on. As I indicated before very few people distinguish any type of a difference between a jump turn and the type of spin move described in the OP.

Obviously, if an umpire wants to enforce a rule technically .......be my guest....... but that doesn't mean that I'm going to be jumping on the bandwagon anytime soon.

 

[Cato the Younger]

I think PBUC has a philosophy that "distance" requires the foot to leave the footprint. Any part of the foot returning to the prior footprint fails to qualify.

"Direction" requires that the foot move more toward the base thrown/feinted to than to any other base.

I agree with Maven. It was taught to me at umpire school the pitcher had to gain ground toward first. If he landed in the same spot the non-pivot foot started in the set position professional umpires are taught to balk this.

 I have used the gain ground interpretation in other situations but as I indicated above I pass on it on the "pivot" and the "jump turn" in high school baseball.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Cato the Younger

[Cato the Younger]

I

It makes me wonder @Cato the Younger, are there other rules in your area that are not enforced?

 Some rules are enforced by many umpires throughout the country. But there are certain rules that generally are a tool available if you need it and are generally ignored in some areas.

Just off the top of my head:

We've never embraced the batter's box rule in my area and is rarely enforced.

 I can't recall a time the time limit for warm-up pitches between innings was ever enforced.

Defensive coaches are often allowed to sit on buckets outside of their dugouts in many games played in our area.

Warm-ups continue to occur while the umpires are doing the ground rules pretty often. I don't know of any umpires that make the teams stay in the dugouts even if they stop the warm-ups.

Going to the mouth while contact with the rubber is rarely enforced in my area. Although this one is become enforced more often since the federation made the rule change.

 I can't remember the last time I heard that somebody required somebody to be completely within the 24 inches of the pitchers plate in the set position

I'm speaking from significant credibility as well I'm one of four individuals that's assigns almost all of the varsity high school baseball in our area so I am pretty plugged in and what's called and what's not as I regularly deal with over 100 umpires and a significant number of coaches ...... many who like to complain.

[johnnyg08]

 Some rules are enforced by many umpires throughout the country. But there are certain rules that generally are a tool available if you need it and are generally ignored in some areas.

Just off the top of my head:

We've never embraced the batter's box rule in my area and is rarely enforced.

 I can't recall a time the time limit for warm-up pitches between innings was ever enforced.

Defensive coaches are often allowed to sit on buckets outside of their dugouts in many games played in our area.

Warm-ups continue to occur while the umpires are doing the ground rules pretty often. I don't know of any umpires that make the teams stay in the dugouts even if they stop the warm-ups.

Going to the mouth while contact with the rubber is rarely enforced in my area. Although this one is become enforced more often since the federation made the rule change.

 I can't remember the last time I heard that somebody required somebody to be completely within the 24 inches of the pitchers plate in the set position

I'm speaking from significant credibility as well I'm one of four individuals that's assigns almost all of the varsity high school baseball in our area so I am pretty plugged in and what's called and what's not as I regularly deal with over 100 umpires and a significant number of coaches ...... many who like to complain.

So virtually no game management and lots of 3 hour games?

[Richvee]

 Some rules are enforced by many umpires throughout the country. But there are certain rules that generally are a tool available if you need it and are generally ignored in some areas.

Just off the top of my head:

 

Defensive coaches are often allowed to sit on buckets outside of their dugouts in many games played in our area.

 

This needs to be enforced. It's a rule,and if you are not enforcing it you're opening yourself up to a liable suit when the coach gets nailed with a foul ball.. Major POE with our association and our state. 

[maven]

 Some rules are enforced by many umpires throughout the country. But there are certain rules that generally are a tool available if you need it and are generally ignored in some areas.

Just off the top of my head:

We've never embraced the batter's box rule in my area and is rarely enforced.

 I can't recall a time the time limit for warm-up pitches between innings was ever enforced.

Defensive coaches are often allowed to sit on buckets outside of their dugouts in many games played in our area.

Warm-ups continue to occur while the umpires are doing the ground rules pretty often. I don't know of any umpires that make the teams stay in the dugouts even if they stop the warm-ups.

Going to the mouth while contact with the rubber is rarely enforced in my area. Although this one is become enforced more often since the federation made the rule change.

 I can't remember the last time I heard that somebody required somebody to be completely within the 24 inches of the pitchers plate in the set position

I'm speaking from significant credibility as well I'm one of four individuals that's assigns almost all of the varsity high school baseball in our area so I am pretty plugged in and what's called and what's not as I regularly deal with over 100 umpires and a significant number of coaches ...... many who like to complain.

That's an interesting list. Ohio wants all of those provisions enforced. Cato, can I ask in which state you work?

If nobody enforces any of those (or the spin balk), I guess I wouldn't recommend that any individual be a "pioneer." Change will probably have to come from the top and involve coaches.

It's not that unusual for different states to have vastly different procedures. I have acquaintances who work football in Long Island, and the way the coaches run the show there would never fly in my state (though the coaches might prefer it).

[ricka56]

I think PBUC has a philosophy that "distance" requires the foot to leave the footprint. Any part of the foot returning to the prior footprint fails to qualify.

Maybe PU gets that call.
I am not good enough to see this.
Good luck selling that.

[Cato the Younger]

So virtually no game management and lots of 3 hour games?

Less then your post would imply. I personally find a big strike zone and BBCOR bats keep my game times around 2 hours.

I also have always been fascinated by the "game time junkies" we have several of them in the area as well. As soon as the game gets over they are scrambling to find a watch as if five minutes shaved off a varsity baseball game means that they did an awesome job. Not factoring in the wake of negative feelings that they left constantly barking at the teams all game all to save five minutes.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Cato the Younger

[Cato the Younger]

So virtually no game management and lots of 3 hour games?

 

I think the problem with many umpires is that they think there's only one way to handle a situation. That is enforced the letter of the rule. Period.

Let me give you an example. Many coaches like to sit on buckets made outside the dugout door as I pointed out above. Sometimes it's the pitching coach who wants to give signs; sometimes they just want to be there. When I see this in one of my games after the first time I observe it between innings I pull both of the coaches aside and I say: " Hey guys I know you're used to sitting on the buckets but as you know you're supposed to be inside the dugout. Here is my suggestion: we can call the area where the buckets are dead ball territory, and you guys can sit out there as long as you don't interfere. Ball hits the bucket or is next to the bucket I will shut it down and start awarding bases." 

Sometimes the coaches on their own decide to go inside the dugouts because they don't like the idea that their presence there could cause me to award bases; other times they continue to coach on the buckets in what is now dead ball territory. 

I find that this solution works a lot better than barking at the coaches demanding that they get inside the dugout because that's the rule.

Beginning of last season, I went to a school that I work often, and the coach came up to me before the ground rules all excited that he chalked the area in front of the dugout so that he and his pitching coach could coach from the buckets while the team was on defense.  He said he's been doing this all year everyone seems to like it and was actually grateful for how I handled the situation. 

 This was a much better way to handle this than making some sort of declaration that everybody needed to be in the dugout today.

So rather than looking like I was treating a coach that I have great respect for like a little kid  by constantly barking at him to get into the dugout we found a solution that works for both of us and it did not involve me constantly shooing them into the dugout or enforcing some sort of penalty like restricting them to the dugout.

[Richvee]

 

I think the problem with many umpires is that they think there's only one way to handle a situation. That is enforced the letter of the rule. Period.

Let me give you an example. Many coaches like to sit on buckets made outside the dugout door as I pointed out above. Sometimes it's the pitching coach who wants to give signs; sometimes they just want to be there. When I see this in one of my games after the first time I observe it between innings I pull both of the coaches aside and I say: " Hey guys I know you're used to sitting on the buckets but as you know you're supposed to be inside the dugout. Here is my suggestion: we can call the area where the buckets are dead ball territory, and you guys can sit out there as long as you don't interfere. Ball hits the bucket or is next to the bucket I will shut it down and start awarding bases." 

Sometimes the coaches on their own decide to go inside the dugouts because they don't like the idea that their presence there could cause me to award bases; other times they continue to coach on the buckets in what is now dead ball territory. 

I find that this solution works a lot better than barking at the coaches demanding that they get inside the dugout because that's the rule.

Beginning of last season, I went to a school that I work often, and the coach came up to me before the ground rules all excited that he chalked the area in front of the dugout so that he and his pitching coach could coach from the buckets while the team was on defense.  He said he's been doing this all year everyone seems to like it and was actually grateful for how I handled the situation. 

 This was a much better way to handle this than making some sort of declaration that everybody needed to be in the dugout today.

So rather than looking like I was treating a coach that I have great respect for like a little kid  by constantly barking at him to get into the dugout we found a solution that works for both of us and it did not involve me constantly shooing them into the dugout or enforcing some sort of penalty like restricting them to the dugout.

Let's see how grateful that coach is after you let him sit out there and he takes one to the face. I'm sure he and his attorney will be happy to recall that you knowingly let him sit outside the dugout. No room for leeway on this. No making up rules or dead balllines. In the dugout or we're not playing.

[Cato the Younger]

Let's see how grateful that coach is after you let him sit out there and he takes one to the face. I'm sure he and his attorney will be happy to recall that you knowingly let him sit outside the dugout. No room for leeway on this. No making up rules or dead balllines. In the dugout or we're not playing.

Ahh, the litigation scare. 

If this is such a huge problem find me just one example where a coach (not an athlete) was hit in declared dead ball territory with a game action ball and sued the umpire for getting hit with a ball......... much less successfully won a judgement. 

It's like warmups. I've seen teams take the field when the coaches and the umpires were concluding the ground rules and watched umpires demand that players go back into the dugout. Most of the time I find this to be a great way to conclude the pregame conference rather then bark at the players to get back to the duggout. I then get the game underway to avoid those three-hour ballgames other posters in this thread are worried about. If we are not done, we just move aside well out of the way. I suspect I'm much more likely to win the Powerball lottery then get hit by an errant warm-up pitch or infield throw if you use common sense in where you move in this situation.

It's different if the team still conducting infield practice and there're balls flying everywhere certainly this could be dangerous. But again give me one example of a lawsuit from a pregame conference involving the umpires and the coaches that a throw went bad when is the pitcher warming up and the infielders tossing the ball over to first base. Sure if your standing next to home plate this might be an issue. But well off to the side???????? 

You do what you want, but I wouldn't hold your breath for this being a problem for me anytime soon. 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Cato the Younger

[Richvee]

You have no right to declare the area in front of a dugout dead ball area so a coach can sit out there on a bucket.. I'm not about to search for the incident, but it happened here in NJ, prompting the POE and strict  enforcement  of the rule... ignore it at your own risk. You sound like the guy who lets the kids play when you hear thunder and dismiss it by saying, "That's far away, no worries"