Throwing The Bat

[JoCoUmp]

I don't work Little League rule set but I believe that is the only organization that actually has a rule that says the batter is out if he throws his bat.  Does anyone know if a similar rule exists for USSSA or NFHS? I haven't found one but continue to get coaches demanding that a kid be called out for throwing his bat (generally a youth league issue but I've seen it at high school too).

Discussion among friends suggested considering it an unsportsmanlike conduct act and invoking that to call the person out (but not eject) but would prefer a rule interp to support it.  Safety issue because the catcher can get dinged pretty good, as can the umpire.

Like to know what you all think.

[Richvee]

No rule set calls a batter out for carelessly tossing a bat. A team can be warned, and subsequently players ejected for it, but a batter is never declared out.

[JoCoUmp]

Can you cite the rule that says you can warn and later eject? I've heard that too and know some guys who do that, but I've never seen that in the USSSA or NFHS book.

[Senor Azul]

NFHS rule 3-3-1c:

 

A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

 

c.  carelessly throw a bat

Penalty:  At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected.

 

See casebook play 3.3.1 Situation X.

[Richvee]

Mr. Azul always quick with the cites!

[JoCoUmp]

Geesh, and with all the times I've read the Fed rules and I completely missed that.  Now the hard part, anyone work leagues that use USSSA rules that can come up with something similar? USSSA basically uses the pro rules with a few (but not enough) modifications and so that is where we really have a hard time explaining a penalty.

[Senor Azul]

USSSA rules are based on Official Baseball Rules (OBR). The issue of carelessly throwing a bat is not covered in the OBR. But neither is an umpire granted authority to award an out on a carelessly thrown bat. There is, however, an official interpretation that can be found in the Baseball Rules Differences by Carl Childress (p. 79, 2014 edition):

 

“If the umpire is hit by a carelessly thrown bat, he is almost certain to warn the batter that such action must be stopped. On the second offense, the player is told he will be ejected if he continues. On a third offense, the umpire should eject the offender.” (Wendelstedt, 7/13/12)

[Rich Ives]

I don't work Little League rule set but I believe that is the only organization that actually has a rule that says the batter is out if he throws his bat.  Does anyone know if a similar rule exists for USSSA or NFHS? I haven't found one but continue to get coaches demanding that a kid be called out for throwing his bat (generally a youth league issue but I've seen it at high school too).

Discussion among friends suggested considering it an unsportsmanlike conduct act and invoking that to call the person out (but not eject) but would prefer a rule interp to support it.  Safety issue because the catcher can get dinged pretty good, as can the umpire.

Like to know what you all think.

Incorrect.

[kylehutson]

The rec league I started with (small town 8u, 10u, and 13u) uses an NFHS-based ruleset. I know good and well that there is no rule for an out for throwing the bat. However, I'm not going to eject a kid (after the warning for the first one) when an out will be every bit as traumatizing. Half of these guys don't even understand the problem and calling an out corrects those actions pretty well.

High school game? I'm going with the rule book (never had to go past the warning). Travel ball? I've never had it come up.

[ricka56]

I ejected a recidivist 10 year old bat-slinger, after giving the coach a warning that I would do so, for throwing the bat at F2. You'd have thought that I sentenced the kid to the electric chair and they complained loudly to the TD/owner. The next season, this travel ball facility made bat slinging an out penalty.Though I don't agree with it, I use it as prescribed (an out) at this facility only.

I used this local rule this past fall on a power-hitting 14 y.o. And though everyone knew that johnnie-bat-slinger was batting,the sound of this bat hitting F2 was shocking. I think my verbal was, " OMG ... THAT BATTER IS OUT". The HC of this kid had no problem with me trying to correct a problem that he hadn't been able to fix.

I asked F2, "you know what the good thing was about getting hit by that bat slinger". He couldn't think of one. "The good thing about you getting hit by the bat was that you stopped it from hitting me". Good-natured F2 smiled. 

[Replacematt]

The rec league I started with (small town 8u, 10u, and 13u) uses an NFHS-based ruleset. I know good and well that there is no rule for an out for throwing the bat. However, I'm not going to eject a kid (after the warning for the first one) when an out will be every bit as traumatizing. Half of these guys don't even understand the problem and calling an out corrects those actions pretty well.

High school game? I'm going with the rule book (never had to go past the warning). Travel ball? I've never had it come up.

Stop making things up. You make it harder on the rest of the umpiring community when you do.

[kylehutson]

Stop making things up. You make it harder on the rest of the umpiring community when you do.

In general, I agree with you. I'm trying to think of how this could even apply unless another umpire actually did eject a player (I've been around this league for over 10 years, first as a coach when my kids were in 8u coach-pitch, and as an umpire for over 5, and I've never heard of a any player getting ejected for any reason. It's called "wreck ball" for a reason - these guys are just learning the game.)

[Tksjewelry]

During Utrip 12u fall ball (definitely a training wreck league) the first day I was whacked by flying bats enough that the coaches agreed to a "field rule" of a team warning then an out for a second thrown bat for the rest of the season. Getting the team a warning was embarrassing enough for a 12 year old to not have that happen very many second times. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[DVA7130]

I've ejected several kids in the described warn then eject manor. Hell I've been protested on it.. fun phone call to listen to.

"Hello Mr. State Director, can an umpire eject a player?........ Oh, he can?..... OK I am sorry for wasting your time".

Not only when the catcher is getting hit, but I'M getting hit by flying bats? Please.. get outta of here...

[Mudisfun]

For LL I have used the warning and then the old 'coach little Johnnie bat slinger is done for the day' line which forces the coach to bench the player. The one coach that thought about not going with the program was reminded that if I sit the kid it is an ejection and he loses the next game as well. Coach normally gets the light bulb above the head look and takes door #1. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[notrump]

I had to wing this one yesterday. 9U travel game, and team with only 9 players are just throwing their bats after they hit the ball. I tell several players to watch it. It keeps happening. One boy gets a hit, throws the bat that hits the catcher. I give an official warning. Between innings I tell coach of that team that since they only have 9 players, I am not going to eject anyone next time  a bat is thrown (even though I know that is the rule), but I will call the batter out if it hits the catcher or me. I did not want to get into a situation where I eject players and that team has no replacements; I want the game to actually be played. Coach agrees. Of course, what happens next inning is that with two runners on base, the batter wallops one, throws the bat that hits the catcher, my arms go up immediately, and a few seconds later ball goes over the wall for a HR. However, I call the batter out and put the two runners back on base. Coach goes berserk, says it was a HR so I cannot do that (I guess I could call him out only if he was out to begin with (LOL)), calls me an asshole, and I eject the coach. Asst coach who takes over talks to me and tells me "look, as long as you had told him what you would do, you get no argument from me". Next time that batter comes up, he gets a hit, and promptly drops the bat safely. There was another time a batter on that team throws the bat which nails the catcher in his arms and chest. I call him out and no one complains (that team won by a mercy anyway).

I know that what I did was not strictly by the rules, but I had weight whether I wanted the boys to actually play the game, or have it suspended or forfeited because players were being ejected. Rightly or wrongly, I made a decision that I felt was warranted for the situation. I would never have made that decision for a HS game, however!

[BigUmpire]

As much as I dislike USSSA the Georgia rule book has this we use to handle a bat thrower.

WE call it " dugout Prison"

Ejections carry a hefty punishment so we use this book rule:

10.05 Managers, coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, scorekeepers, players and other dugout personnel shall be confined to the dugout for the remainder of a game as an alternative to an ejection at the sole discretion of the Director / Umpire(s).
Rule 10.05 Comment: Confinement to the Dugout is defined as remaining in the dugout until the conclusion of the game.
This included between half innings, between innings, during time-outs, during pitching changes, etc. Managers, coaches,
assistant coaches, trainers, scorekeepers, players and other dugout personnel shall not leave the dugout until the game
concludes or upon direction by a Director / Umpire(s).

[BigUmpire]

Our first priority is to ensure the safety of all involved.

Do what you have to to to make this happen.

@notrump -  you did it right!

 

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, BigUmpire said:

Our first priority is to ensure the safety of all involved.

Do what you have to to to make this happen.

@notrump -  you did it right!

 

No, he didn't. He failed to do his job on two accounts--he purposely made up rules, and refused to take responsibility for what this job entails.

[notrump]

I certainly understand there will be differences of opinion on this, and that is why I posted this on the forum. I want to hear all sides. I agree that I did not apply the rule as stated in the book, but adapted it (with the ok of the coach) for the situation that presented itself, and for the reasons I indicated. It is not true that I refused to take responsibility for what the job entails. The fact is, this was 9 year old baseball on a beautiful day, and I, and everyone else, would rather see the game being played than forfeited. I actually took full responsibility for what; I certainly told my assigner what happened (and he actually thought I did the right thing under the circumstances). It would have been a disservice to the players in my estimation to strictly adhere to the rule. I think we all have to exercise common sense when we officiate games. For instance, how often does it happen in rec games that a player has to leave early, leaving the team with fewer than 9 players, and everyone agrees that his batting spot is NOT an automatic out when it comes up. Pretty often. Again, no way I would take this approach in higher level baseball. 

[SJA]

Well, here's my .02. It is said we have "6 senses" . . . I disagree. I think we have "7" . . . and that one, which arguably may be one of the most important, is rarely used. I would hope most of you can figure it out.

:-) 

[JaxRolo]

I was working a 14u tournament today. Partner had plate.

Batter threw his bat. Partner called him out.

[umpstu]

17 hours ago, notrump said:

I had to wing this one yesterday. 9U travel game, and team with only 9 players are just throwing their bats after they hit the ball. I tell several players to watch it. It keeps happening. One boy gets a hit, throws the bat that hits the catcher. I give an official warning. Between innings I tell coach of that team that since they only have 9 players, I am not going to eject anyone next time  a bat is thrown (even though I know that is the rule), but I will call the batter out if it hits the catcher or me. I did not want to get into a situation where I eject players and that team has no replacements; I want the game to actually be played. Coach agrees. Of course, what happens next inning is that with two runners on base, the batter wallops one, throws the bat that hits the catcher, my arms go up immediately, and a few seconds later ball goes over the wall for a HR. However, I call the batter out and put the two runners back on base. Coach goes berserk, says it was a HR so I cannot do that (I guess I could call him out only if he was out to begin with (LOL)), calls me an asshole, and I eject the coach. Asst coach who takes over talks to me and tells me "look, as long as you had told him what you would do, you get no argument from me". Next time that batter comes up, he gets a hit, and promptly drops the bat safely. There was another time a batter on that team throws the bat which nails the catcher in his arms and chest. I call him out and no one complains (that team won by a mercy anyway).

I know that what I did was not strictly by the rules, but I had weight whether I wanted the boys to actually play the game, or have it suspended or forfeited because players were being ejected. Rightly or wrongly, I made a decision that I felt was warranted for the situation. I would never have made that decision for a HS game, however!

I think what you did was remember that the game is about the kids and did all you could to keep it that way.  OUTSTANDING.

[umpstu]

12 hours ago, notrump said:

I certainly understand there will be differences of opinion on this, and that is why I posted this on the forum. I want to hear all sides. I agree that I did not apply the rule as stated in the book, but adapted it (with the ok of the coach) for the situation that presented itself, and for the reasons I indicated. It is not true that I refused to take responsibility for what the job entails. The fact is, this was 9 year old baseball on a beautiful day, and I, and everyone else, would rather see the game being played than forfeited. I actually took full responsibility for what; I certainly told my assigner what happened (and he actually thought I did the right thing under the circumstances). It would have been a disservice to the players in my estimation to strictly adhere to the rule. I think we all have to exercise common sense when we officiate games. For instance, how often does it happen in rec games that a player has to leave early, leaving the team with fewer than 9 players, and everyone agrees that his batting spot is NOT an automatic out when it comes up. Pretty often. Again, no way I would take this approach in higher level baseball. 

Agreed 100%.  It's a 9 year olds baseball game.  He most certainly took full responsibility and let the kids play a GAME.  You say PLAY at the beginning of the game for a reason.  

[ricka56]

I didn't make up this rule...I prompted it...for better or worse. 

The week after I EJ'd a 10U player for his 2nd bat-slinging (prev warned), new local rule was put in place to give a team warning and dead ball out called on the next occurrence on any player of that team. Suppose I could ignore the local rule and keep EJ'g recidivus bat slingers, but then I'd need to find something else to do on weekends.