My most complicated play in over 30 years

[FleasOf1000Camels]

12u tourney, FED rules with some modifications.  6 inning games with no new inning after 1:30.  Pool games CAN end in tie, but if tied with time remaining on limit, we're to play extras starting each half inning with runners on 1st and 2nd.  I am U2. 

This is the last pool game, with 6 of the 12 teams advancing to bracket play.  Both teams know exactly where they stand.  Home team (as determined by coin toss) knows they MUST win to advance.  Visiting team knows if they win they will get #1 or #2 seed (and bye to semis), but even with a tie or a loss they will still advance to bracket play.  As umpires, we're not really aware of all these scenarios, but they come up later.

The game is a dandy, well pitched and quick paced.  End of 6, we're tied 2-2 with 18 minutes left on time limit, so we play on.  Neither team scores in the 7th, but VT gets a single run in the 8th.  Bottom of 8th, HT has 1 out with R1 on 3rd, R2 on 1st.

R2 breaks for 2nd as F1 commits to plate.  F2 comes up from his crouch and reaches forward.  Batter swings, bat hits F2's glove then the ball.  Soft line drive, knuckling back at F1, who awkwardly slaps at ball.  Ball hits heel of his glove, then hits his left shoulder and bounces away toward the right side of the infield.  The ball bounces right where F4 would have been, if he hadn't moved to cover 2nd on the steal.  R1 (seeing ball in the air) scrambles back to 3rd, but R2 keeps going.  F4 (who is nearly at 2nd) sees the ball on the ground, steps and turns to his left, directly into the path of R2.  Their collision is quite a train wreck (altho nothing malicious or intentional) and both are knocked to the ground.  FREEZE IT RIGHT HERE, as I review my thought process at that moment:

Is R2 guilty of interference? No. Since the ball was deflected by F1, F4 is no longer protected.

Is F4 guilty of obstruction? Possibly, but since I'd only award R2 2nd, and he's obviously going to get there anyway, why bother.

I judge it as incidental contact, play on.

R1 breaks for home while F1 scrambles to the ball.  R1 slides in easily safe (with the tying run) ahead of F1's throw.  BR is still standing near LH box, apparently wondering/questioning why he hasn't been awarded 1st on the catcher's obstruction.  The little light in his head finally comes back to life, and he heads for 1st just as R1 slides across the plate.

F2 calmly steps in front of plate, he wants to throw to first, but F3 isn't near the bag, so F2 double-clutches.  R2 (who has crawled back to his feet and is at 2nd) takes off for 3rd.  F2 sees R2 on the way to 3rd, and (still holding the ball) runs straight at him.  The resulting pickle is a typical 12 year old cluster, ending with BOTH R2 and BR standing on 2nd.  F6 tags R2, looks at me as I signal SAFE.  He then tags BR, and I signal and shout "HE'S out."  R2 then steps off the bag and is tagged by F6 and I shout "HE'S out TOO."

I'm sure you can imagine all the excitement and noise that was coming from fans, players and coaches.  My partner and I are huddled about the C position, and BOTH coaches are approaching from their respective positions.  Neither are going nuts, they both look to be genuinely confused.  I politely put up the stop sign, and asked both to "stand down while we sort this out."  Right about this time I became aware that the game timer (which was clipped to the backstop) was chirping to signal the expiration on the time limit.

My partner and I walked through the play, step-by-step, starting with the catcher's obstruction.  We came to the obvious conclusion that the offense had the option to take the penalty OR the result of the play. 

"Result of play" =  1 run scores, 3 outs, inning over, game time expired with score tied.

"Enforce penalty" = R1 returns to 3rd (run negated), R2 returns to 1st, BR awarded 1st which forces R2 to 2nd.  Home team continues to bat with bases loaded, 1 out and trailing by 1 run...this WILL be the final inning.

We called the coaches back together and laid out the options to the Home team's manager.  Visiting team's manager kept interrupting.  He questioned every step: "I don't believe my catcher obstructed the batter", "If he DID, why didn't you kill the play right then?", "Why didn't you call their runner for interfering with my second baseman?", "Why didn't you call the batter out for abandoning his right to advance on the hit?", "How can you say the run counts when the inning ended on a double play?"  Finally I said "coach, you're only here as a courtesy, if you keep interrupting the process, I'll restrict you to the dugout.  Our call is correct, and the option is HIS (indicating the home manager).  He grumbled something under his breath, scratched the dirt with the toe of his shoe, then folded his arms and shut up.

Home manager then asked to once more review his options, not the entire scenario, just the end result of each.  "OK. Result of play means game over as a tie.  Penalty means bases loaded, 1 out, you trail by one."  It was only at this point that we learned how the result of this game would effect their advancing or not advancing to bracket play.  Home manager says "A tie does us no good, we'll take the penalty."

Visiting manager then meekly asked "may I have permission to speak?"  Expecting to hear more of his silly objections, I reluctantly agreed, said "sure, what questions do you still have?".  "No questions.  Just wanted to say you guys got it all right, and I'm sorry if I was kind of a dick before...I just sort-of got caught up in the moment."  Everybody shook hands and we went back to playing ball.

Now we're back to play; bases loaded, 1 out, home team trails 3-2.  First pitch hit easy one-hopper straight back to pitcher, tailor made for 1-2-3 DP.  F2 is screaming for the ball, but for some reason, F1 turns to 2nd and throws it six feet over F6's head.  Two runs score, home team wins 4-3.

Both teams advance to bracket play, winning team is #6 seed, losing team as #3.  They play the very next game, and I'm now on the plate.  #3 seed bats around twice in the first inning and cruises to a 22-2 win in 2 1/2 innings.  Go figure.

 

 

[Jimurray]

Still reading but on your first freeze frame the collision was either INT or OBS. A fielder is still protected when fielding a deflected ball so if you protected F4 it was INT. A runner is protected from being hit by a deflected ball.

[Jimurray]

If you didn't have INT on R2 (really R1) then you had OBS on F4. At the end of play you decide what you award R2 (R1) and other runners. It's possible you might judge that OBS prevented him from getting 3B. Then there would no choice for the coach. Edited to add: Then what would we do with the BR? Was his out at 2B due to the OBS? Umpire judgement.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Jimurray

[stkjock]

wow, that's some series of events!!

 

sounds like 6 seed ran out of pitching for bracket play :)

[NorthTexasUmp]

BR and all runners advanced safely 1 base. Catchers Obstruction is ignored and there is no option. Inning over, tied game.

[Jimurray]

BR and all runners advanced safely 1 base. Catchers Obstruction is ignored and there is no option. Inning over, tied game.

True if the collision is called obstruction and the protection is to 2B only. But the collision has to be either INT or OBS.

[Richvee]

Still reading but on your first freeze frame the collision was either INT or OBS. A fielder is still protected when fielding a deflected ball so if you protected F4 it was INT. A runner is protected from being hit by a deflected ball.

I know in OBR, we'd call INT if we thought F4 had a legitimate play on a runner. Is there  a similar interp for FED?

[Senor Azul]

The original post states the play in question was governed by Federation rules. So here’s the applicable Fed interpretation from Carl Childress’ BRD (2014 edition, p. 210):

 

Following the deflection of a batted ball by the pitcher, when a fielder and a runner have contact in the base path:  The umpire assesses no penalty as long as he is certain the runner had LITTLE OR NO TIME TO CHANGE DIRECTONS. The resulting play is a “collision,” neither interference nor obstruction. If the runner could have avoided contact, interference is the call. (Rumble, 4/90)

 

Under OBR, the fielder would not have been protected at the time of the collision since he was not yet in the act of fielding—he was merely moving in the direction of a loose ball. 

[Jimurray]

I know in OBR, we'd call INT if we thought F4 had a legitimate play on a runner. Is there  a similar interp for FED?

@Rich, In OBR I'm unaware of the/a protected fielder needing to have a legitimate play on a runner as the condition to call interference in plays such as the OP. ie: fielding a deflected ball. What have I been unaware of?

[Jimurray]

The original post states the play in question was governed by Federation rules. So here’s the applicable Fed interpretation from Carl Childress’ BRD (2014 edition, p. 210)

 

Following the deflection of a batted ball by the pitcher, when a fielder and a runner have contact in the base path:  The umpire assesses no penalty as long as he is certain the runner had LITTLE OR NO TIME TO CHANGE DIRECTONS. The resulting play is a “collision,” neither interference nor obstruction. If the runner could have avoided contact, interference is the call. (Rumble, 4/90)

 

 

 

Under OBR, the fielder would not have been protected at the time of the collision since he was not yet in the act of fielding—he was merely moving in the direction of a loose ball. 

 

A little late to for me to reseach FED on this issue which maybe I have been unaware of. But, in OBR, if the fielder was not protected, would it then be obstruction? And if a fielder was moving in the direction of a batted ball that was not deflected and was interfered with by a runner is there anything in OBR that calls this a collision without penalty or is it INT or OBS?

[Senor Azul]

From the 2014 PBUC (paragraph 7.31, p. 84):

Play 5:  With a runner on first base, the batter hits a line drive back to the pitcher which deflects off of his glove and rolls toward the second baseman. As the second baseman is attempting to field the ball, the runner from first collides with the second baseman.

Ruling 5:  In the judgment of the umpire if the second baseman has a legitimate play on the ball, the runner from first is called out for interference. The ball is dead at the moment of interference, and the batter-runner is awarded first base (provided the interference was not intentional; if intentional, both runner and batter-runner are declared out). However, if the umpire rules that the second baseman does not have a legitimate play on the ball (i.e., he was merely moving in the direction of a loose ball), then obstruction is called under Official Baseball Rule 7.06(b).

 

From the Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 100, 2010 edition):

A fielder cannot be protected if he is chasing a batted ball that has been deflected or missed. If, however, he is trying to field a ball that has been deflected by another fielder, he can be protected as long as he is not chasing after the ball.

[Richvee]

Thank you again, Senor Azul for answering @Jimurray question. Been busy @work and haven't got to the books. The PBUC cite is what I was referring to.

 

So it does seem that you cannot have a collision under OBR without OBS or INT, while the FED interp does seem to say you can have a "That's nothing". Personally, it seems tome there needs to be a call of INT or OBS when there's a collision. Minor contact....maybe I can live with "that's nothing", but not a collision.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Richvee

[DVA7130]

BR and all runners advanced safely 1 base. Catchers Obstruction is ignored and there is no option. Inning over, tied game.

^^^^

THIS. That's protestable. In honestly I didn't even think of this caught up in the senerio. 

[DVA7130]

And fwi screw fed, that's catcher's interference. Also the use of their runner nomenclature made my head hurt.

[Jimurray]

 

 

Thank you again, Senor Azul for answering @Jimurray question. Been busy @work and haven't got to the books. The PBUC cite is what I was referring to.

 

So it does seem that you cannot have a collision under OBR without OBS or INT, while the FED interp does seem to say you can have a "That's nothing". Personally, it seems tome there needs to be a call of INT or OBS when there's a collision. Minor contact....maybe I can live with "that's nothing", but not a collision.

There is a little difference in OBR and NCAA on this that CC in the BRD glosses over. PBUC requires a play on the ball and NCAA requires a legitimate play to retire a runner. But regarding the OP sit under FED I have a few questions about the 1990 Rumble interp. Do all fielders reacting to a deflected ball gain protection from OBS? Or only one fielder who would be protected. In the OP it's unlikely that F4 would be a protected fielder but if he is the Rumble interp would apply. If F4 is not protected we have OBS. In the OP @FleasOf1000Camels mentions protecting to 2B only but after the play is over there might be a possibilty of protecting R2 (the real R1, I'm with you on that @Dva7130) to 3B.  

Edited January 2, 2016 by Jimurray

[Richvee]

There is a little difference in OBR and NCAA on this that CC in the BRD glosses over. PBUC requires a play on the ball and NCAA requires a legitimate play to retire a runner. But regarding the OP sit under FED I have a few questions about the 1990 Rumble interp. Do all fielders reacting to a deflected ball gain protection from OBS? Or only one fielder who would be protected. In the OP it's unlikely that F4 would be a protected fielder but if he is the Rumble interp would apply. If F4 is not protected we have OBS. In the OP @FleasOf1000Camels mentions protecting to 2B only but after the play is over there might be a possibilty of protecting R2 (the real R1, I'm with you on that @Dva7130) to 3B.  

For what it's worth, I don't like the Rumble interp one bit. I don't see how you can have a collision between a fielder and a runner and not have OBS or INT....And I'm not talking about a throw into the line at 1st, or play on a runner...Just the OP example, and Rumble's interp. It's judgement if you want to protect him to 3rd or 2nd, but I don't see how it's not OBS being F1 "scrambles for the ball" after the deflection. Sounds to me like F4 wouldn't be a protected fielder. I agree even if you think R1 is only protected to 2nd, you have to call it.

Trying to work out a mental picture of the play, at the time of the collision, it may have looked like R1 would only be protected to 2nd, but after the throw from F1 to F2, and the pump to 1st, and R1 "scrambling to his feet and then trying for 3rd"...At the end of play, I may be inclined to award R3 3rd.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Congrats to NorthTexasUmp for catching the error we made on the field.

Once batter and all runners advanced one base, the catcher's obstruction ought to have been ignored, offense gets no option, game over.

This play happened several years ago, and my partner and I realized the error while talking it over later that night at the bar.

[grayhawk]

Congrats to NorthTexasUmp for catching the error we made on the field.

Once batter and all runners advanced one base, the catcher's obstruction ought to have been ignored, offense gets no option, game over.

This play happened several years ago, and my partner and I realized the error while talking it over later that night at the bar.

There were two others error made, at least in your thought process:

"Is R2 guilty of interference? No. Since the ball was deflected by F1, F4 is no longer protected."

This statement is false.  I'm not going to flat out say that R1 committed interference, since I wasn't there, but if you judged no interference based on this statement, then you erred.  The deflection only absolves the runner from being called for interference if he is struck by the ball after the deflection, as long as he didn't intentionally get hit. 

"Is F4 guilty of obstruction? Possibly, but since I'd only award R2 2nd, and he's obviously going to get there anyway, why bother."

Why bother?  Because if obstruction occurs, then you need to call it because you don't know what's going to happen, especially in Fed where all obstruction is a delayed dead ball.  I suppose you could judge that this collision didn't change the pattern of play, but I think that would be an error in judgment based on your description.

As described, this play was either interference or obstruction.  With both players knocked to the ground, a "that's nothing" call would probably be incorrect.

[jpperez14]

IF OBS is called, R1 is awarded 2nd base. (Penalty ignored if the base reach was judged runner would have reached had OBS not occured) R3 scores, both outs at 2nd stand. 3-3, ball game.

IF INT is called, the play would be dead immediately because of INT. Since R1 has not reached 2nd base, you would enforce Catcher's Obstruction, BR to 1st, R1 to 2nd, and R3 stays at 3rd. (side note: If R1 INT were to be deemed MC, you then call R1 out for INT and eject for MC and, you could get BR out as well if you feel it prevented a double play. and ignore CO) 

IF nothing is called, the catcher's obstruction is ignored because BR, R1, and R3 advance at least 1 base. Both outs at 2nd stands. Time expired, ball game. 3-3 tie.

 

‌@grayhawk would you agree? disagree? add? subtract?

[grayhawk]

IF OBS is called, R1 is awarded 2nd base. (Penalty ignored if the base reach was judged runner would have reached had OBS not occured) R3 scores, both outs at 2nd stand. 3-3, ball game.

IF INT is called, the play would be dead immediately because of INT. Since R1 has not reached 2nd base, you would enforce Catcher's Obstruction, BR to 1st, R1 to 2nd, and R3 stays at 3rd. (side note: If R1 INT were to be deemed MC, you then call R1 out for INT and eject for MC and, you could get BR out as well if you feel it prevented a double play. and ignore CO) 

IF nothing is called, the catcher's obstruction is ignored because BR, R1, and R3 advance at least 1 base. Both outs at 2nd stands. Time expired, ball game. 3-3 tie.

 

‌@grayhawk would you agree? disagree? add? subtract?

Mostly. If obstruction is called, then the minimum award is second. You could award him third or even home if you judged he would have achieved those bases if not for the obstruction. The idea of getting two here has nothing to do with MC, though I'm not sure if you were tying those two concepts together. They weren't getting two on this play anyway.

[GreyhoundAggie]

BR and all runners advanced safely 1 base. Catchers Obstruction is ignored and there is no option. Inning over, tied game.

This was the first thing that popped in my head too.

[jpperez14]

Mostly. If obstruction is called, then the minimum award is second. You could award him third or even home if you judged he would have achieved those bases if not for the obstruction. The idea of getting two here has nothing to do with

MC

, though I'm not sure if you were tying those two concepts together. They weren't getting two on this play anyway.

If you were to call R1 out for INT with F4 ability to field the ball and say if he trucks him, you have MC. Well MC results in a out and ejection. I thought this would be a play where MC supersedes the CI, resulting in BR awarded 1st and R3 stays at 3rd w/ 2 outs? or am I wrong on application?

[grayhawk]

If you were to call R1 out for INT with F4 ability to field the ball and say if he trucks him, you have MC. Well MC results in a out and ejection. I thought this would be a play where MC supersedes the CI, resulting in BR awarded 1st and R3 stays at 3rd w/ 2 outs? or am I wrong on application?

That would be the correct application.

[ALStripes17]

 

"Enforce penalty" = R1 returns to 3rd (run negated), R2 returns to 1st, BR awarded 1st which forces R2 to 2nd.  Home team continues to bat with bases loaded, 1 out and trailing by 1 run...this WILL be the final inning.

 

 

Sidebar:  Not necessarily applicable since R2 (screw FED nomenclature) would have been forced anyway BUT IF you were to enforce CI, remember that any runners that were advancing on the pitch are awarded the next base on CI, forced or not.