Continuous Batting Order

[smckin]

The situation:

Sudden Death Tie Breaker "Texas Tie Breaker" (not sure I agree with it but it is what it is)... Little League Junior Division Fall Ball Tournament Championship Game, (tournament rules must use continuous batting order. Runner on second (the last out from the previous inning is on 2nd), two outs 3-2 count on the batter high inside pitch batter swings fouls it off fingers. I call foul ball batter is in obvious pain as they released the bat fingers were deformed from the impact of the ball. Batter can not finish the at bat. How does the game proceed.... "YOU MAKE THE CALL 

[Larry in TN]

two outs 3-2 count on the batter high inside pitch batter swings fouls it off fingers

Unless I am reading this wrong, I've got dead ball, strike three, third out.

 

[stkjock]

Unless I am reading this wrong, I've got dead ball, strike three, third out.

 

Strike three and Third out on a foul ball?

[grayhawk]

Unless I am reading this wrong, I've got dead ball, strike three, third out.

 

You don't have it wrong.

[noumpere]

Strike three and Third out on a foul ball?

No.  Strike three and Third out on the OP.

[stkjock]

No.  Strike three and Third out on the OP.

becuase it hit the hand on a swing and not the bat?

 

HU calls foul ball then changes call to strike three?

The situation:

Sudden Death Tie Breaker "Texas Tie Breaker" (not sure I agree with it but it is what it is)... Little League Junior Division Fall Ball Tournament Championship Game, (tournament rules must use continuous batting order. Runner on second (the last out from the previous inning is on 2nd), two outs 3-2 count on the batter high inside pitch batter swings fouls it off fingers. I call foul ball batter is in obvious pain as they released the bat fingers were deformed from the impact of the ball. Batter can not finish the at bat. How does the game proceed.... "YOU MAKE THE CALL 

[basejester]

That's an epic cluster-F*#K of house rules, so in keeping with that spirit, I would suggest that the game be decided by a jump ball or shoot out.

OK, somewhat more seriously:

If the ball struck the hands first, you have an out, like everyone else wrote.

If the ball struck the bat first and then the hands, you have a foul ball.  If the player is incapacitated, the governing rule is 4.04, which says "the team will skip over him/her when his/her time at bat comes up without penalty."  In your case, when the injury occurs during the at-bat, I would put the next batter in the line-up in the box with the 3-2 count.

Edited December 3, 2015 by basejester

[Richvee]

Sounds like it should have been a strike three call, but for the sake of your real question, if a batter cannot finish his AB and you're playing continuous batting order, the next batter would come up assuming the count of the injured batter. I believe this is addressed in the LL rulebook.

I call a lot of ball around here playing continuous order. I'll bring this up at plate meetings.

There's two issues I'll bring up at the plate meetings in these games unless the tourney or league has specifically addressed these issues.

1.If a player is injured are we skipping his spot in the order or is he an out? (The caoches can decide this, I don't care either way.)

2..If a player is ejected, his spot in the order will be an out.

 

[Rich Ives]

Sounds like it should have been a strike three call, but for the sake of your real question, if a batter cannot finish his AB and you're playing continuous batting order, the next batter would come up assuming the count of the injured batter. I believe this is addressed in the LL rulebook.

I call a lot of ball around here playing continuous order. I'll bring this up at plate meetings.

There's two issues I'll bring up at the plate meetings in these games unless the tourney or league has specifically addressed these issues.

1.If a player is injured are we skipping his spot in the order or is he an out? (The caoches can decide this, I don't care either way.)

2..If a player is ejected, his spot in the order will be an out.

 

If you are using LL rules the spot is skipped without penalty. Period.

The who to have bat if injury during an AB issue has never been formally decided. Most leagues bring up the nearest previous batter not on base.Why you say? So the next batter doesn't get deprived of his complete AB which he might also need to meet MPR.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Rich Ives

[Rich Ives]

Strike three and Third out on a foul ball?

The ball is immediately dead when it hits the batter. The resultant hit is neither fair nor foul. Just a strike. If strike three the batter is out.

[stkjock]

The ball is immediately dead when it hits the batter. The resultant hit is neither fair nor foul. Just a strike. If strike three the batter is out.

I see, makes sense, in the OP how is the apparent incorrect call of "foul ball" then remedied? 

[grayhawk]

I see, makes sense, in the OP how is the apparent incorrect call of "foul ball" then remedied? 

The ball is dead either way, so when it's determined that the pitch hit the batter while he was swinging, change the call and put on your flak jacket before speaking with the OC.

[smckin]

As I read the LL rules it does not state if a player is injured during that players turn at bat it only speaks of when the injured / ejected players turn comes up.

 

The end result was third out  game over... Thanks for yalls input just wanted to see if I was on the correct track... It was a tough one with the house rules in place

[smckin]

and actually I was able to keep the coaches in check through it all .. luckily

[Jimurray]

As I read the LL rules it does not state if a player is injured during that players turn at bat it only speaks of when the injured / ejected players turn comes up.

 

The end result was third out  game over... Thanks for yalls input just wanted to see if I was on the correct track... It was a tough one with the house rules in place

Was it the third out because of a dead ball strike or was it out for no sub to replace the batter after his "foul" ball?

[smckin]

dead ball strike

[smckin]

I ate a little crow initially it looked and sounded like a foul ball didn't realize it never hit the bat until a second or two later...

[grayhawk]

I ate a little crow initially it looked and sounded like a foul ball didn't realize it never hit the bat until a second or two later...

Slooooooooooooooooooooooow Down.  There's no hurry here.  Read the reaction of the batter.  Listen to the sound that was made when the ball struck the bat/fingers.  You could even check the batter's hands/fingers etc to see if there is a mark.  If the ball ends up in fair territory, then you have to make a faster judgment here, but you can still watch the batter's reaction before making your call.  Resist the urge to make that call right away and you'll be better off.

[Cato the Younger]

This reminds me one of my favorite stories with a "pain in the rear end coach" that I still deal with each season. 

Two strikes and two outs in the sixth inning in a one run ball game and the batter swings...... I hear a ping on the aluminum bat ( fortunately this is before composite bats which makes the call little more challenging) ball sails to the backstop, and I call the ball foul. 

The batter starts acting up claiming he got hit in the hand. This was a delayed reaction......the ball and hit the backstop before the batter reacted in any way. So I was planning on sticking with the foul ball determination......... that was until my buddy "coach hemorrhoid" decided to show up on the scene jogging out waving his arms pointing at his hand.

Coach H comes out and starts complaining that his player was hit in the hand, and I screwed another call-up and I need to "fix it."  I told him I'm proud of you that you would be out here asking me to do the right thing  in this situation. He gave me a very stern but puzzled look. I pointed out that he very well might be right. So maybe I do need to "fix it" and if that's the case the innings over because the batter swung so that would be strike three. He literally ran back to the dugout yelling he's right that was a foul ball....... play ball.

[Cato the Younger]

Slooooooooooooooooooooooow Down.  There's no hurry here.  Read the reaction of the batter.  Listen to the sound that was made when the ball struck the bat/fingers.  You could even check the batter's hands/fingers etc to see if there is a mark.  If the ball ends up in fair territory, then you have to make a faster judgment here, but you can still watch the batter's reaction before making your call.  Resist the urge to make that call right away and you'll be better off.

Great advice. Having slow timing (not making quick calls) all game also helps you sell this call with taking your time not making a quick call here as well.

In defense of OP...... hit batters situations are still one of the top 5 hard calls I still have challenges with on the plate especially with composite bats. Bring back the aluminum and it's distinct sound.Composite is so much harder to distinguish from bone.

I know the rule, but life would be easier if the hands were interpreted to part of the bat by rule. Many of these check swing/ hit batter situations would certainly be easier to deal with. 

[Rich Ives]

Great advice. Having slow timing (not making quick calls) all game also helps you sell this call with taking your time not making a quick call here as well.

In defense of OP...... hit batters situations are still one of the top 5 hard calls I still have challenges with on the plate especially with composite bats. Bring back the aluminum and it's distinct sound.Composite is so much harder to distinguish from bone.

I know the rule, but life would be easier if the hands were interpreted to part of the bat by rule. Many of these check swing/ hit batter situations would certainly be easier to deal with. 

I can't believe someone said that.

[Cato the Younger]

I can't believe someone said that.

And why is that???

I understand the current rule. But the reality is this is one of the toughest situations that a plate umpire has to deal with creating endless headaches season after season. 

I know there is umpires that enjoy making difficult challenging calls and educating players/ coaches and fans with their knowledge of "what the rule actually is" but these are the partners that usually create more problems they solve when I am working with them. I prefer rule interps being written that make administering the game easier without affecting the balance of the game. 

I have a dozen or more of these situations every season explaining to some coach with fans yelling at me and a kid waving his hand around that the hand is not part of the bat or in some cases making a tough call on a pitch that jams the batter, and now the player is claiming it hit his fingers, not the bat. Does he stay or is he awarded first. This is a call I am guessing a great deal on. Maybe you are better than me and this is an easy call for you. But I doubt it.

I am not expecting the rule to change, but the reality is these calls would be a ton easier to deal with if the hand were interpreted to be part of the bat. Most really tough calls would become easy to call foul balls by rule.

[Replacematt]

And why is that???

I understand the current rule. But the reality is this is one of the toughest situations that a plate umpire has to deal with creating endless headaches season after season. 

I know there is umpires that enjoy making difficult challenging calls and educating players/ coaches and fans with their knowledge of "what the rule actually is" but these are the partners that usually create more problems they solve when I am working with them. I prefer rule interps being written that make administering the game easier without affecting the balance of the game. 

I have a dozen or more of these situations every season explaining to some coach with fans yelling at me and a kid waving his hand around that the hand is not part of the bat or in some cases making a tough call on a pitch that jams the batter, and now the player is claiming it hit his fingers, not the bat. Does he stay or is he awarded first. This is a call I am guessing a great deal on. Maybe you are better than me and this is an easy call for you. But I doubt it.

I am not expecting the rule to change, but the reality is these calls would be a ton easier to deal with if the hand were interpreted to be part of the bat. Most really tough calls would become easy to call foul balls by rule.

It is an easy call. If you can't tell, it hit the hand first.

[Cato the Younger]

It is an easy call. If you can't tell, it hit the hand first.

It's not an easy call.

Instead you have found a simple formulaic solution to a very difficult umpire situation and you are probably missing more of these types of calls then you realise or your ego would allow you to admit in your games with such a sophomoric approach.

Is your advice sound for a new umpire or one who's unsure? Agreed. But it's like telling an umpire "if in doubt call them out." Not bad advice to handle a challenging situation and for damage control for an umpire who is about to lock up in a game....... but that doesn't in anyway guarantee you are getting the call correct when you call them out. The same goes when applying one of these "rules of thumb" to handle a difficult situation like check swing/potential hit batter/foul ball decisions. 

[ricka56]

If you slow down and watch B's initial reaction, then the decision that you make will probably be the right one. What I look for is if B's initial reaction is that of pain or that of relief (that he wasn't hit). Then look at B's secondary reaction, does relief turn to fake pain. If B can fake pain immediately he's probably gonna bambozzle his way to 1B, but few can pull this off. Their immediate reaction tells the tale. If you slow down and look for B's reaction, you should be able to get this right 99% of the time.