Jump to content

Everyone Wrong but Partner and I


tankmjg24
Umpire-Empire locks topics which have not been active in the last year. The thread you are viewing hasn't been active in 2983 days so you will not be able to post. We do recommend you starting a new topic to find out what's new in the world of umpiring.

Recommended Posts

So I had something happen the other day that was a first for me.  I was doing a 16U Fall Ball game in a league that usually has pretty good baseball.  The coaches are mainly dads that have volunteered their time in order for the kids to get to play some more, and the majority probably do not even own a rule book much less read one, but they are polite and not hostile.  FED rules, but that does not matter here.  

We are in the 6th inning and the batter hits a curveball straight down off homeplate.  It proceeds to bounce about 100 feet in the air to the point that it resembled a pop fly.  Batter stays in the box admiring his work while F1 runs forward and waits for the ball to come down.  The ball comes down right on the dirt circle so I signal fair.  At this point the runner takes off for first and F1 throws to F3 for the out.  Offensive coach requests time and comes down and asks me if the ball hit off of homeplate.  My response is a simple yes.  He kind of looks confused then asks well wouldn't that make it a dead ball.  My response is no and I explain that homeplate is just part of the field and all that matters is where the ball ends up.  He still does not understand, and asks again that by the ball hitting off the plate that it would be a dead ball.  I reply again that this is not the case and that it is time to play as I start to make my way back behind the catcher.  My partner and I have it set up so that once one of us turns away, that if the coach does not leave they come in and walk him back to where he belongs.  This is what happened, and I see my partner talking to him as he is walking him back to the coaches box.  The defensive teams coach walks out now and starts talking to them as my partner is walking the coach back to the box.  I can see my partners face get that "oh God" look and then he jogs down to me.  He informs me that the coach still did not understand even after he explained it to him as well, but then the defensive coach came out and says that he agrees with the offensive coach and that he just wants the call correct and not get an easy out.  So now all 4 of us are talking and my partner and I are trying to convince both coaches that their rule interpretation was incorrect.  This league follows the FED state adoption that there are no protests, so there was no option for this.  We eventually gave up trying to convince them and ended with that's the rule and we are going to play baseball.  The downside to all of this is that everyone thought we were incorrect and could not figure out why we would not change our minds.  It was so bad at the end of the game that when the defensive coach shakes our hands, he tells us that he was ok with us changing the call and that everyone misses one now and then and not to worry about it.  My partner and I just have a what the heck look together.  

So, how would everyone of handled this situation?  We are obviously correct and they are wrong.  Now one of my big concerns is that neither of these teams understood a simple rule, thought we were the ones incorrect, and now the next time it happens they will still have the same thought.  Thoughts? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems like you did what you could.  However, I don't see any reason for your partner to get involved at all.  The "rodeo clown" routine is for ejections, not for explanations.  I understand that it's just a fall ball game, but once I explained the rule (briefly) and that I am 100% certain that it's correct, I would inform the coach that we need to get back to playing ball and if he remains on the field that he will be ejected for delaying the game.  I don't want or need my partner coming down to "help" out.  Sounds like him getting involved only prolonged the discussion.

On the after game comment, I would probably tell him that he's more than welcome to look it up and contact me with the rule cite.  Tell him to start with Rule 5 which explains when the ball becomes dead.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tell them to read a rule book.

Just memorize what Rules 5-8 are

Rule 5 Dead Ball Situations
Rule 6 Pitching
Rule 7 Batting
Rule 8 Baserunning

Anytime a situation comes up, "Coach, thats covered in the rule book under Dead Ball Situations, Rule 5." 

In this case it might actually be Rule 1 though, which covers the Field.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do not -- repeat, do not -- try to convince a coach he's incorrect.  It's a waste of time and often escalates a situation.  Unfortunately, it's easy to get caught up in it.  This same thing happened to me a couple of weeks ago.  The coach comes out and says, "Isn't it a foul?"

"Nope, coach.  All bases are in fair territory."  He looked a little confused, but that was my queue to return to the plate and keep going.  Let him continue to wonder as you play on.

Remember this: It isn't the coach's job to know the rules.  He focuses on skill development and game strategy.  I've had a couple of incidents when coaches tell me I'm wrong, and I'll just smile and reply with something like, "But that's not the rule.  The rule is [whatever it is]." and move on.  So far, I haven't had to give prolonged explanations or get in any arguments.

And to emphasize @grayhawk's point, partners should keep clear and if the coach approaches them, they should refer him back to you.

Edited by ElkOil
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't fix stupid or ignorant on the field.

Maybe send the coach one of the hundreds of the 20 myths of baseball that are floating out there on the internet... I know the few I have read always have the home plate scenario your described as one of the myths.

I agree with @grayhawk that there is no need for your partner to get involved unless you EJ the coach. What do you do if the coach gets a different reply from your partner than you gave? Puts the crew in an awfully awkward position then.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can be one of the most internally frustrating situations. All you can do is remind them that you are in charge and suggest they look it up when they get home.

It can be frustrating. They won't look it up. They will call the guy who's been calling it like that in your neck of the woods, the resident smitty. they exist everywhere. He will explain that you got it wrong. You will never know about it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those little jabs at the end drive me nuts.  Maybe they don't mean anything by it and maybe they do. In reality however, its totally ignorant of the rule book, common sense, and building a respectful relationship with umpires.  Jimurrays right, he'll go vent to the smitty and the smitty will blow smoke in his ass

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had luck with this but only do it for Coaches who are open to it.

I tell them I'll e-mail them the rule.  I've done this on several occasions over the last few years and just about every time I get positive feed back from them as well as our UIC who usually gets copied in on the e-mail in both directions.

Now if this is one of those coaches who is a total jack wagon and has no interest in learing then I don't even bother, but from your description of the situation, these guys seem open to learning.  I try to educate whenever possible.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had luck with this but only do it for Coaches who are open to it.

I tell them I'll e-mail them the rule.  I've done this on several occasions over the last few years and just about every time I get positive feed back from them as well as our UIC who usually gets copied in on the e-mail in both directions.

Now if this is one of those coaches who is a total jack wagon and has no interest in learing then I don't even bother, but from your description of the situation, these guys seem open to learning.  I try to educate whenever possible.

 

Tough one to email since there's nothing in the rule book, as far as I know, that says the ball hitting the plate is a live ball.  We know the plate is completely in fair territory, but it's not like the book says that a batted ball that hits the plate is a live ball.  It's the absence of any rule saying that the ball is dead that makes it live.

Also, am I the only one that gets annoyed when someone posts a question or scenario, there are several responses, and the person that posted the question never comes back?  Seems like a waste of time answering the question, but as long as others can learn from it, I guess it's a good thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tough one to email since there's nothing in the rule book, as far as I know, that says the ball hitting the plate is a live ball.  We know the plate is completely in fair territory, but it's not like the book says that a batted ball that hits the plate is a live ball.  It's the absence of any rule saying that the ball is dead that makes it live.

Also, am I the only one that gets annoyed when someone posts a question or scenario, there are several responses, and the person that posted the question never comes back?  Seems like a waste of time answering the question, but as long as others can learn from it, I guess it's a good thing.

I read most of them and quite often learn something, so there that :) Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, am I the only one that gets annoyed when someone posts a question or scenario, there are several responses, and the person that posted the question never comes back?  Seems like a waste of time answering the question, but as long as others can learn from it, I guess it's a good thing.

I think it's a little annoying when I hold a door open for someone and they walk through without even looking at m or acknowledging it in any way, and give the impression that of course the door should be held for them. But this was only Tank's 4th post, and unlike the door, you never know when the thread is over. So I just assume they are reading and learning silently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

I would simply tell him that home plate is in fair territory and then ask "What makes the ball dead"? After he fails to explain that send him back to the dugout and go on with the game. I think the OP is too worried about what the coaches think of him. If you know you're right, just let them be ignorant of the rule and move on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've encountered situations like these, where simple rules myths are taken as gospel, handed down from generation to generation of coaches.

 

You can choose to try to explain, then argue your point, or, go the humor route.

 

Chuckle, "Skipper, the entire plate is considered fair territory. It's a common rules myth it's not. Hell, I know I didn't believe it when I was a coach, but ya gotta trust me on this one". Then walk away. Don't try to talk sense when dealing with any of the myths, like "the hands are part of the bat". They're too engrained to some guy's noggins.

 

Oh, and they believe this stuff because some umpire, somewhere along the line, told them so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I explained it once to a coach by reasoning, "are the fouls lines fair or foul? we'll they are fair, so where do they come together? at the rear edge of the plate, so therefore the plate is in fair territory. The guy seemed to buy it, I kind of demonstrated the "V" that the lines make as they merge at the plate. Very simple but effective.  I understand about the obvious rules being so hard for "civilian coaches" to grasp.  Ugliest argument and multiple ejections I may ever had was over a "foul tip" being caught directly by the catcher and runner thrown out at 2nd on a steal.  We all know clearly that is a live ball and runner at risk to be thrown out as any other steal.  Coaches, kids and moms and dads all knew better! Boy it was ugly maybe 5-6 total ejections, and we were 100% right.  Sometimes its how you explain it not how its written in the book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fair/foul status of the plate is a red herring in this scenario as the OP correctly identified.  The explanation with the lines is good in the right context (e.g., when the ball settles on the plate).  I'm just saying that if we get into that topic after this play, we're implying that if the ball first hits foul it's foul, which is clearly wrong. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...