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Different plays


umpref19
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1 runner picked off third with throw and tag on dugout side. base ump asks home plate ump by pointing at him and is just about to say did he tag him. before he can say that, home plate ump very alert to play comes up with he s out. we got it right, we did the right thing but home plate ump should have waited for  "did he tag him"  and let base ump call him out.  2 same ball game, we play with 20 foot panel gone in left centerfield. we discuss at groundrules if ball rolls thru it will be a double after a raise of outfielders hands and verification. we did not discuss what happens if outfielder catches fly ball in field of play and momentum carries him thru hole in fence.  what do we have?  3 runner on third comes home on groundball to ss. throw goes to first pulls firstbaseman off bag. he makes tag attempt and holds onto ball as batter runner hacks down on his arm holding ball. ball does not dislodge and runner is called out. is that interference, if it is should it be called and if it s called what do we do with runner who scored from third.  4  pitched ball hits knob of bat and goes directly to mound on ground. umpire calls foul ball or ball immediately but does realize his mistake.  what can we do   what do we have  if we do anything what do we do with runner who was on second and reached third or was thrown out at third.  should assignor fire the umpire?  what do we do  Sent from my LG-D415 using Tapatalk

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  1. BU should give his game check to PU if he's not going to make his calls. PU has no business doing anything at all on a pickoff play.
  2. Catch and carry, 1 base award. 
  3. Depends: if the umpire rules hindrance, that's INT, the ball is dead, the BR is out, R3 returns. If not, then the BR is out on the tag and the run scores.
  4. Stick with the foul ball call and put everyone back.
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  1. BU should give his game check to PU if he's not going to make his calls. PU has no business doing anything at all on a pickoff play.
  2. Catch and carry, 1 base award. 
  3. Depends: if the umpire rules hindrance, that's INT, the ball is dead, the BR is out, R3 returns. If not, then the BR is out on the tag and the run scores.
  4. Stick with the foul ball call and put everyone back.

2 would be live ball in OBR.

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Guest James
  1. BU should give his game check to PU if he's not going to make his calls. PU has no business doing anything at all on a pickoff play. If, for some reason, BU does share his game check with PU, you should never appeal anything out loud, except a check swing. 
  2. Catch and carry, 1 base award. 
  3. Depends: if the umpire rules hindrance, that's INT, the ball is dead, the BR is out, R3 returns. If not, then the BR is out on the tag and the run scores.
  4. Stick with the foul ball call and put everyone back. ​As soon as you announce "foul", the ball is automatically dead. You cannot let the play play out. I am not about to give anyone any bases on that situation, unless you do it on an obvious hit to the outfield. 

​If you ever do need to appeal anything to your partner, such as a pulled foot at 1B, always do it privately, preferably with the coach in his dugout or coach's box. I like what the NCAA does on conferences. They put the coach in his dugout or coach's box, and they tell him something along these lines. "I'm going to conference with my partner. I will not talk to him until you are in your dugout. During that time, we will discuss the call, and I will announce the new call. If it stands, you must stay in your dugout, and if you come out to argue, you will be ejected."

Also, be sure to ask them what you want to ask your partner. Do not let them just say, "ask him if he saw anything different". Only have them ask something specific such as, "Can you ask your partner if F3 bobbled the ball".

disclaimer: I am a young umpire without any formal training. Good Luck!!!

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​If the fence panel in the OP separated the field from spectators it would be a catch and carry. Otherwise live ball.

​No. Not at all. This is true of Any dead ball territory. There is no distinction to be made. But I don't really understand what point you are trying to make.

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​No. Not at all. This is true of Any dead ball territory. There is no distinction to be made. But I don't really understand what point you are trying to make.

There is a distinction to be made. The fielder can go into the dugout or other deadball territory other than a spectator area and the ball remains live if the fielder does not fall or drop the ball. Most fields don't have dead ball territory other than spectator areas but if there is a gap in an outfield fence where spectators don't have access that would be such territory. 

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There is a distinction to be made. The fielder can go into the dugout or other deadball territory other than a spectator area and the ball remains live if the fielder does not fall or drop the ball. Most fields don't have dead ball territory other than spectator areas but if there is a gap in an outfield fence where spectators don't have access that would be such territory. 

​This difference explains why you don't see awards in pro ball for fielders making a catch and falling into a dugout. Many people infer incorrectly that OBR has no "catch and carry" award.

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​This difference explains why you don't see awards in pro ball for fielders making a catch and falling into a dugout. Many people infer incorrectly that OBR has no "catch and carry" award.

You will see awards in pro ball for a catch and carry and fall down in the dugout. You won't see an award for catch and carry into the dugout.

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"Interpretations" that are really entirely different rules make me want to kick puppies.  The case play quoted in the PBUC is specific to stands.  What supports undoing the "falling" requirement for other dead ball areas in the actual rule?

 

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When did I say anything about falling. If a fielder falls into any deadball territory, then it's a base. It is also a base if he throws it before he comes back into liveball from any deadball territory.

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When did I say anything about falling. If a fielder falls into any deadball territory, then it's a base. It is also a base if he throws it before he comes back into liveball from any deadball territory.

​Where do you find this in PBUC? There is a specific play where the catcher catches a foul fly outside the dugout, momentum carries him in, he attempts a throw and drops the the ball. The ruling is a one base award on the DROPPED ball. You can infer that a throw is allowed. It is also allowed from any other dead ball territory other than the stands.

Edited by Jimurray
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​Where do you find this in PBUC? There is a specific play where the catcher catches a foul fly outside the dugout, momentum carries him in, he attempts a throw and drops the the ball. The ruling is a one base award on the DROPPED ball. You can infer that a throw is allowed. It is also allowed from any other dead ball territory other than the stands.

PBUC §9.1 "Legal Catch" includes this guidance. Citations are pre-2015 OBR.

 

Screen Shot 2015-07-05 at 4.43.46 PM.png

:ph34r:

 

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I do, and that is where I get this belief from.

6.5:1 Right dropping the ball in dead-ball is two bases just like any ball that ends up there (not counting a pitch).

From the first paragraph of 6.5 which states "..dugout, bench, grandstand or any out-of-play area..." which is talking about falling down after a catch and carry. At the same time, from play 6.5:5 it is obvious that it treats throwing from DBT and falling down the same, it is the same award. I know it says stands, but from these two passages there should be read no distinction of what "type" (if there is such a thing) of DBT IMHO. Any out-of-play area is ineligible to be thrown from, and is a one base award.

9.1:1 As posted above reinforces by stating the almost exact same passage about a legal catch.

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I do, and that is where I get this belief from.

6.5:1 Right dropping the ball in dead-ball is two bases just like any ball that ends up there (not counting a pitch).

From the first paragraph of 6.5 which states "..dugout, bench, grandstand or any out-of-play area..." which is talking about falling down after a catch and carry. At the same time, from play 6.5:5 it is obvious that it treats throwing from DBT and falling down the same, it is the same award. I know it says stands, but from these two passages there should be read no distinction of what "type" (if there is such a thing) of DBT IMHO. Any out-of-play area is ineligible to be thrown from, and is a one base award.

There are two types of DBT in OBR, stands and other types.  6.5 play 5 is from the stands. If, for some reason another type of DBT exists at the field other than the dugout (none do at MLB fields) it would be allowed to throw from there given the OP. we had a example from Australia in the past. Good luck finding that. Good luck also finding a field in MiLB that has a ground rule that violates the book rule. I did so the topic can be confusing. 

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I have seen the Australia play. It was inconclusive whether he was in DBT or live when he threw it, but my feelings about the play were congruent with what I have posted. That is the end of my argument. I've given most everything that supports it, and I do not understand how there is any disagreement.

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